snakebelly
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| posted on 24/9/13 at 08:03 PM |
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Worrying Trackday Developement
Going on a trackday soon? This makes interesting reading
Piston
heads thread
[Edited on 24/9/13 by snakebelly]
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jossey
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| posted on 24/9/13 at 08:16 PM |
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mmmm. Dont see how court can still do you if you sign a waiver.
Oh well another case of Courts are bast*rds lol
David
Thanks
David Johnson
Building my tiger avon slowly but surely.
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perksy
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| posted on 24/9/13 at 08:20 PM |
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Believe the waiver just exonerates the Track owner themselves from a possible claim ?
The 'no win no fee' lot will probably love this 
Its being discussed on a few forums at the moment....
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ReMan
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| posted on 24/9/13 at 08:20 PM |
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Very interesting, read it the other night from a FB link
Hope it comes to nowt
www.plusnine.co.uk
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 24/9/13 at 08:33 PM |
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I'd suggest trackday insurance that covers damage you do to other people seems like common sense anyway? Can't say I'd want to take
my car to a track with a bunch of witless lunatics and place its safety in their hands, same as I wouldn't on the road.
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gaz_gaz
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| posted on 24/9/13 at 09:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
I'd suggest trackday insurance that covers damage you do to other people seems like common sense anyway? Can't say I'd want to take
my car to a track with a bunch of witless lunatics and place its safety in their hands, same as I wouldn't on the road.
Interesting thoughts. I'd be interested to know who insures there cars before taking them on track.
I for 1 havent in the past and don't think this ruling would change my mind. Only the fact my new car is worth more has me looking at possibly
insuring in future.
I've done many many days and believe it or not. The first was the only time I have seen car to car contact. Put me off knockhill so much I left
home and moved FAR south
[Edited on 24/9/13 by gaz_gaz]
[Edited on 24/9/13 by gaz_gaz]
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daniel mason
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| posted on 24/9/13 at 09:09 PM |
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REIS do competition car insurance at good rates!
insured for travel and storage but not once on track. BUT ITS AMAZING HOW MANY CARS SUFFER DAMAGE ON THE WAY HOME FROM TRACKDAYS!
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mookaloid
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| posted on 24/9/13 at 09:59 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
I'd suggest trackday insurance that covers damage you do to other people seems like common sense anyway? Can't say I'd want to take
my car to a track with a bunch of witless lunatics and place its safety in their hands, same as I wouldn't on the road.
It seems that the problem is that you can't currently buy insurance that covers damage you do to other people's cars - only damage that
your own car sustains.
In this case the car that was written off was insured so the insurer went after the driver of the other car, claimed that he was negligent and won the
case.
Very scary 
"That thing you're thinking - it wont be that."
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MK9R
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| posted on 24/9/13 at 10:53 PM |
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It will be the end of track days! You take you car on their at your own risk, if it gets damaged by you or someone else then its tough tits,
don't go trying the blame game!
Cheers Austen
RGB car number 9
www.austengreenway.co.uk
www.automatedtechnologygroup.co.uk
www.trackace.co.uk
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jeffw
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 05:20 AM |
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I don't think people have read through the thread on Pistonheads correctly.
We really don't know the circumstances here. If the Civic driver was driving sensible, came round the corner to find the Caterham spun on the
grass, he then lifts off and spins into the Caterham then it is very harsh by the Insurance company. If, however, the Civic driver had spent all day
driving like a dick, drove through waved yellow flags at full speed and wrote off the Caterham then I completely understand why the insurers would go
after him in a court.
The information on the thread seems to indicate
1. He drove through yellow flags prior to the incident
2. He lost control of his car and hit a stationary Caterham
3. The insurer paid out the Caterham driver and then pursed the Civic driver through the courts to recover the money.
4. Civic owner represented himself
5. Judge found him to be negligent and found for the Insurance company.
There are two 'take away' points from that.
a. Don't miss yellow flags being waved
b. get a lawyer if you are being sued.
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ReMan
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 06:47 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
I don't think people have read through the thread on Pistonheads correctly.
We really don't know the circumstances here. If the Civic driver was driving sensible, came round the corner to find the Caterham spun on the
grass, he then lifts off and spins into the Caterham then it is very harsh by the Insurance company. If, however, the Civic driver had spent all day
driving like a dick, drove through waved yellow flags at full speed and wrote off the Caterham then I completely understand why the insurers would go
after him in a court.
The information on the thread seems to indicate
1. He drove through yellow flags prior to the incident
2. He lost control of his car and hit a stationary Caterham
3. The insurer paid out the Caterham driver and then pursed the Civic driver through the courts to recover the money.
4. Civic owner represented himself
5. Judge found him to be negligent and found for the Insurance company.
There are two 'take away' points from that.
a. Don't miss yellow flags being waved
b. get a lawyer if you are being sued.
I read it and I absolutely agree with what your saying, however, (and not to redo the PH thread on here) the worry is still that:
a)this could end up in court at all
b)driving like a dick is very subjective and me spinning off at all, because I drove round a track corner Too fast/wrong line/wrong tyres/under
braking/wrong damper settings, ( as I usually do on track ) puts me and most of the other non "driving gods" who do track days to avoid
endangering he genearal public and being constrained by the normal rules of the road, at a new risk of negligence, for which we previously believed we
were safe from
www.plusnine.co.uk
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richardm6994
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 07:16 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ReMan
puts me and most of the other non "driving gods" who do track days to avoid endangering he genearal public and being constrained by the
normal rules of the road, at a new risk of negligence, for which we previously believed we were safe from
That is eactly right!
The pistonheads thread suggests that this court case does not set a precedent for track day incidents......but what it has done is highlighted what
criteria the courts deem to constitute negligent driving....which would apply to a lot of people who do currently do track days.
Also the Civic drivers friend has said that the yellow flags had no bearing on the case and the courts did not want to see the video footage.
The nail in the coffin for the Civic driver was that he admitted liability on the day of the crash and this was probably witnessed or recorded and was
probably all that the court was interested in.
[Edited on 25/9/13 by richardm6994]
[Edited on 25/9/13 by richardm6994]
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NigeEss
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 07:25 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by gaz_gaz
Interesting thoughts. I'd be interested to know who insures there cars before taking them on track.
I for 1 havent in the past and don't think this ruling would change my mind.
Neither have I.
My interpretation is that you can't get cover for damage to other vehicle anyway so it seems a bit pointless
as it wouldn't avoid the discussion subject.
Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.................Douglas Adams.
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whitestu
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 07:25 AM |
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You would think track day organisers would be interested in the guy with the Civic winning, and would have got their their lawyers involved, because
potentially their business will go down the pan if this sets a precedent.
I've never had insurance on my own car and always worked under the assumption that should the worst happen and I cause an accident then I would
only have to pay for my own car.
Having said that I've seen plenty of idiots who drive like dicks and can understand why somone might go after them if they casue a prang.
Stu
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richardm6994
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 07:45 AM |
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Quoted from PH
the judge ruled that he was negligent due to approaching the corner at a speed that allowed him to lose control and collide with the other car.
If it is correct though that would mean that you would have to drive on circuit at a speed that didn't allow you to lose control and be able to
stop within the distance you can see to be clear - just like the road
[Edited on 25/9/13 by richardm6994]
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owelly
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 08:04 AM |
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I don't have track day insurance. I did look into it a few years back but the small print seemed to give the underwriters enough loop-holes to
slide through to get out of paing, that it wasn't worth it. If I see idiots out on the track that I consider to be a menace, I stay out of the
way as self preservation is easier and cheaper then standing the moral high ground. ie. It was OK to crash because he was overtaking in the wrong
place!
I can't afford to crash an expensive car so I don't take one on the track. If someone else wrecked my car by driving into it or knocking
me off the track, I wouldn't be chasing them for the £5.60 it would cost to replace the car but if I thought they were being stupid, I may have
a word or two. Likewise, I often let other folks take my car out (plenty did at Blyton) and if they blow it up or crash it, meh. I have another one or
two at home.
"If you can't afford to crash, you can't afford to race" is a phrase often bandied about the paddock. The same applies to
track days to a certain extent.
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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rdodger
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 08:15 AM |
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If the yellow flags were out and he was still going at a speed that meant when he lifted he spun then he was going way too fast!
Not seeing the flags is no excuse. Sounds like the correct ruling to me.
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richardm6994
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 08:27 AM |
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The way I understand it from the PH topic is that if you are on a track day and ;
1) loose it on a corner because you're going too fast
or
2) can't stop within the distance you can see ahead of you
in the courts eye's, you are driving in a negligent manner and if you hit anyone due to the above then you are liable and have to pay.
yellow flags or not, in this case this is the criteria that the courts have decided what constitutes negligent driving....and this will probably set a
precedent.
The problem is that there is a lot of speculation and no one has yet seen the case report. It maybe something different all together
[Edited on 25/9/13 by richardm6994]
[Edited on 25/9/13 by richardm6994]
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jeffw
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 08:31 AM |
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We really don't have the full story here. The Civic drivers 'mate' wasn't there and all his info is 3rd hand at best. If
there are waved yellows and you continue at a speed that causes you to lose control then the least you can expect is to be thrown out to the event.
If you then hit a stationary Caterham hard enough to write it off, admit liability and then defend the action yourself there is only going to be one
outcome......
This doesn't change anything, if you drive negligently (regardless of insurance/waivers) you can still be held liable and this has always been
the case. Any Waiver you sign is between you and the organiser/owner of the circuit and not between you and any 3rd party taking part.
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whitestu
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 08:35 AM |
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quote:
Any Waiver you sign is between you and the organiser/owner of the circuit and not between you and any 3rd party taking part.
Maybe it should be.
Stu
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iank
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 08:52 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by whitestu
quote:
Any Waiver you sign is between you and the organiser/owner of the circuit and not between you and any 3rd party taking part.
Maybe it should be.
Stu
Maybe, but be aware that waivers can't cover against injuries/death caused by negligence and that's where the real money will come in
should there be a big accident, so insurance would still be advisable. Also any waiver is a contract and may be tested by the courts to see if it is
unfair. Beware - "most expensive lawyer wins" isn't fair but often turns out to be a good rule of thumb as our courts are based
around law not justice. Defending yourself against insurance company lawyers is just plain daft.
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
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gaz_gaz
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 09:20 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
REIS do competition car insurance at good rates!
insured for travel and storage but not once on track. BUT ITS AMAZING HOW MANY CARS SUFFER DAMAGE ON THE WAY HOME FROM TRACKDAYS!
Reis are part of Chaucer. Chaucer are the company involved in this case.
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Andy B
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 09:43 AM |
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Really cant get my head round this at all, having lost a Sabre last year (total write off) I just cant see how you can apply courtroom law to cars
being driven at speed on track, there are just too many permutations of conditions and circumstances that can lead to and accident - whilst I dont
condone people driving like idiots surely we head to the track to avoid this very kind of red tape.
Our incident involved pushing too hard into a corner, spinning and coming to rest well off the track, the guy behind just seemed to follow our car in,
wether it unsighted him or broke his concentration, I don't know but the bottom line was he hit a static Sabre plumb midships and side on at a
good 60 mph. My take on it was quite simply, its the chance you take venturing onto a track, our car was destroyed, the mini was a real mess but the
biggest result was both drivers were ok.
Looking at it logically, you could argue that the mini driver was a plank for following us in, our driver was a plank for spinning in the first place
or I was a plank for choosing to test a lightweight grp car on a track where we could be potentially hit by stuff more solid....... or you could just
say "shit happens" and get on with it
If crap like this carries on life is going to become a very dull and expensive place very shortly where only the privileged and wealthy will be able
to do anything more exciting than trivial pursuit!
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jeffw
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 10:01 AM |
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Lets say
The Sabre spins off the track and needs to be recovered. Yellow flags wave while the recovery people are on their way and all the track traffic slows
to pass the incident. The Mini comes charging round the corner at the same speed as he was not under yellows, spins and slams into the Sabre writting
it off.
Mini driver gets out and says 'Sorry, I was driving like a dick' or words to that effect.
Your insurance pays out for the Sabre and then pursues the Mini driver to recover the cost via the courts and the Mini driver represents himself.
This is what appears to have happened.
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Andy B
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 10:50 AM |
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Whilst I can see where you are coming from, I just dont see the race track as a place where insurance companies should start flexing their muscles -
On a full on race day there are drivers at all sorts of different levels of ability and experience, flags still get missed in the heat of the moment,
accidents still happen even to the most experienced of people and innocent parties get collected - two of my biggest wipeouts whilst sidecar racing
were other peoples accidents .
On a track day I think it is reasonable to assume that the level of expertise is, on average less than that of a race day, in fact some track days
even run novice sessions to acknowledge this. Drivers at these events are even more likely to make mistakes in the heat of the moment miss flags, lift
when they should have kept it planted , underestimate closing speeds etc and as such I really dont think you can legislate for all this.
Many moons ago in the Fire Service I used to attend road traffic accidents, later this terminology was changed to road traffic collision as we can, in
our modern blame culture, no longer call it an accident - someone must be culpable.
In the scenario you set out I agree totally that the incoming driver appears to be driving like a dick but he has just turned up, signed on, sat
through a quick briefing and then after 3 laps of trailing a pace car hes out there in the thick of it. He has had no high speed training, no hazard
recognition sessions, inclement driving input or anything resembling the kind of training that would equip him to control a vehicle safely at speed
that we know of, and this is my point - its a track day, stuff does go wrong, cars do get damaged and indeed written off and as soon as we go down the
ambulance chasing route - the games over
Andy
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