Sierra
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| posted on 24/7/14 at 11:01 AM |
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Another hot start problem
Hi all just after advice on what to check/replace first.
This time last year I started having problems with the car not starting after getting hot. I thought that the battery might be old and buggered so I
bought another battery only this time I decided to go with the small bike battery from rmd.
Yesterday I took the car out and it started fine but drove it about a mile turned it off and it wouldn't turn back on. It sounds like the
battery hasn't got enough power but surely that's not right.
Anyway my friend came with jump leads and I was on my way, drove it around 15 miles and stalled at a round about, you guessed it, it wouldn't
start. Pushed it round the corner and tried again and it did start. Drove another mile to my house turned it off and again wouldn't start again.
Parked it in the garage over night and went this morning to start it and it did start first time.
Does this indicate that the battery itself is fine?
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leon51274
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| posted on 24/7/14 at 11:24 AM |
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I had exactly the same issues so I changed battery to one with twice the cranking amp (600) and now have no problems.
[Edited on 24/7/14 by leon51274]
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Sierra
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| posted on 24/7/14 at 11:35 AM |
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Thanks I was thinking battery until it turned over this morning straight away. Surely if the battery was the issue it would always have trouble
starting, hot or cold.
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leon51274
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| posted on 24/7/14 at 11:48 AM |
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Mine would start no problem when cold but then as soon as it got hot it just didn't want to know.
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Sierra
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| posted on 24/7/14 at 11:52 AM |
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Sounds like exactly the same issue then. Does anyone know the cranking amp of the rmd 25 battery?
Also forgot to mention that when my friend went to jump start me it still wouldn't turn over until he switch his engine on.
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Smoking Frog
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| posted on 24/7/14 at 01:39 PM |
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This may help. The starter motor is covered near the bottom of the page.
http://www.w8ji.com/battery_and_charging_system.htm
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whitestu
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| posted on 24/7/14 at 02:34 PM |
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My Zetec engined car will often turn over slower or hesitate before turning over properly when hot. It is fine when cold. I think it is to do with the
starter getting hot as it is close to the exhaust.
I'm surmising that the resistance in the starter increases when hot an so takes a bit more power to get it going. I haven't proved this is
the case yet though.
Could yours be a similar issue?
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daveb666
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| posted on 24/7/14 at 03:02 PM |
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I had a hot-start issue, replacing the old started for a new one cured it and it started twice as faster as it ever did before on the old motor.
It's also noting that, as you said "this time last year" that maybe your air/coolant compensation maps on your car need tweaking for
the hotter weather? it could be doing something special with the ignition advance or fuelling if they're not setup correctly.
2007bc Photography - Commercial and Wedding Photographer based in West Yorkshire
http://www.2007bc.co.uk / http://www.huddersfieldcommercialphotographer.co.uk
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Sierra
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| posted on 24/7/14 at 07:03 PM |
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Thanks for all your help guys. I've just spent the last few hours removing my starter and it was an absolute pain. I can't see a model
number on it but can see valeo. Does anyone recognise what car this starter is from and also does it look in bad shape?
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whitestu
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| posted on 25/7/14 at 10:51 AM |
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The solenoid connections look a bit rusty.
If it is on a Blacktop is should be this one for a 1.8CVH:
Link
This is what I have on my Blacktop. Hard to tell but looks the same as yours in the pics.
Stu
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r1_pete
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| posted on 25/7/14 at 11:00 AM |
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It could be your cranking timing is too advanced, a too early spark will try and push the piston back down against the starter, you dont say whether
your distributer or less, if its MJLJ Squirt etc. back off the cranking advance a bit, if its dizzy, try backing it off a little.
It doesn't happen when its cold because, atomization is not as effective at the low temperature, so the burn rate of the mixture is slower, and
the starter can overcome the resistance, when hot the engine is much more efficient, hence the problem.
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ed1801
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| posted on 25/7/14 at 02:20 PM |
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Same with my westfield, backed off cranking timing from 10° to 0° and the hot start thing went away immediately.
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whitestu
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| posted on 25/7/14 at 02:44 PM |
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Can't remember if I've tried that or not!
I'll fire up the laptop and have a play with the MJ at the weekend!
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Sierra
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| posted on 25/7/14 at 02:52 PM |
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I wish I could do what you've mentioned but I wouldn't even know where to start 
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whitestu
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| posted on 25/7/14 at 03:12 PM |
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What engine are you running?
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Sierra
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| posted on 25/7/14 at 03:46 PM |
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It's a 2ltr blacktop with omex 500
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whitestu
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| posted on 25/7/14 at 04:03 PM |
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Looks like page 21 here would be a good place to start. Omex 500
The software is on the OMEX website.
Stu
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Sierra
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| posted on 25/7/14 at 09:12 PM |
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Thanks for the info stu but I wouldn't dare start messing with it myself as I will probably mess it up. Need to get it tuned anyway to try and
get the best out of the supercharger but first need to sort this starting issue.
I've got a feeling it's the battery or starter. I managed to get a video of it starting when cold and one where it wouldn't start
after a run. Still not sure if it's the starter that goes faulty when hot or the battery not having enough power to give the starter (but
somehow it does when cold)
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Sierra
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| posted on 25/7/14 at 10:23 PM |
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Quick question, if the starter is buggered will it still turn when jumped off another car? Because when this hot start issue happens I get jumped by a
friend
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ed1801
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| posted on 26/7/14 at 11:19 AM |
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Exactly what mine was like. First rotation is fast until it fires, which kicks back and stops it turning over. Then it repeats. Two batteries in
parallel is a way round the problem, as is a battery from a tractor. Neither fix the actual problem...
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snakebelly
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| posted on 26/7/14 at 03:33 PM |
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had this problem myself and in the end fitted a high torque starter and have never looked back, wont use anything else now even on my latest little
1300 tuned triumph project. Remember that when cold the compression will be lower than when fully warmed up as everything expands. if you do a cold
then a hot compression test you should see a marked rise in compression in the warmed up reading. Hence it starts alright cold as the starter has less
compression working against it. Brise and the likes do hi torque geared starters, they are not cheap but will allow you to keep using a smaller
battery and will ensure that the car stats every time.
HTH
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Sierra
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| posted on 26/7/14 at 05:14 PM |
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So you guys reckon it's definitely the starter that's causing the issues not the battery?
Why would the starter still work when using jump leads from another car if it was faulty?
I did try to start it this morning but wouldn't start but that could be that I drained the battery last night trying so many times.
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adithorp
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| posted on 26/7/14 at 06:06 PM |
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No.
I think the ignition is too far advanced when cranking. Certainly sounds like that in the video. The engine is trying to fire AGAINST the direction of
rotation and is too much for the starter/battery combination to overcome. The situation is worse when it's hot as there's better
compression (and possibly different ignition mapping). Connecting another battery on just gives a few more cranking amps to overcome the effect.
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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Sierra
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 posted on 26/7/14 at 08:29 PM |
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So will I be ok buying a larger cca battery (say 500-600) or should I stick to what I have and change the cranking timing to 0'
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adithorp
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| posted on 26/7/14 at 08:52 PM |
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A bigger battery would help, as would a high torque starter but neither are fixing the fault. Back the cranking advance off. If it fixes the problem,
job done.
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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