clutch_kick
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| posted on 26/9/06 at 03:38 PM |
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Alfa V6 Engine size.
I'm trying to get as much info as i can on the Alfa 2.5 litre V6 engine.
Primarily it's size ... will it fit in a Locost type car? What sort of gearbox would be adequate for it?
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Coose
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| posted on 26/9/06 at 03:40 PM |
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Have a look on the Practical Performance Car magazine forum - look for a chap called owelly who is putting a 3 ltr Alfa into a Magenta. I can only
assume a 2.5 is similar so he will be able to tell you the scarcity of bell housings....
Spin 'er off Well...
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clutch_kick
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| posted on 26/9/06 at 05:17 PM |
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Well looks like it fits nice and snug 
Is the type 9 box beefy enough for the torque?
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mistergrumpy
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| posted on 26/9/06 at 05:49 PM |
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I have an Alfa and trust me if its not one thing its another, especially with the V6. Not worth the effort at all, but if you still wanna try either
Alfaowner.com or gtvv6.com. The last one is definetely the better but I think is now under a different name but I think you will be redirected. Will
find anything you need there.
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Johnmor
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| posted on 26/9/06 at 07:20 PM |
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Alfa V6
I have used the Alfa 3.0l V6 in my Viento, and it has been a joy to work with.
I removed the engine from a 1990 164 and had it running very quickly (thanks to some wiring diagrams from Trevborg).
Is started first time nd has given little concern since (except when i mixed the plug leads,but it still ran on four cylinders)
The engine has done over 100,000 miles and sailed through the emissions test and has very good oil pressure.
I have worked on many engines including Lancia twin cam, Ford pinto, Citroen 16v Ford CVH and Alfa four cylinders. This is the most satisfying engine
i have used, sounds and responds great with huge torque and power for very little money and effort (190lbs 190BHP and cost me £40.00)
Some Alfas are tempermental but they are an enthusiasts engines and need to be looked after, you cant ignore its needs for 50,000 miles and expect it
not to complain.
Oil levels and belts need to be done on a regular bassis.
I made a conversion plate to allow the use of a type nine. (see archive)
The type nine is a strong box and many put highly tuned four cylinder engines through with little effect, but only paid £30 for the box so why worry.
These cars are light and will wheel spin if high loads are put through the drive train, if in doubt use the T5 box
V6 Dimensionsheights are based useing a sump from a Alfa 75
Height from bottom of sump to top of Plenum Chamber = 640mm (2.5 is 4mm lower)
Width across Cylinder head banks = 540mm
Lenght including distributer cap=710mm
(See pics)
Total weight (dry),no manifolds,alternator etc = 138kgs
Out put 192 BHP
In short it gives me what i want and almost nobody else has it.
Great!!!!!!
Hope that helps
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stevec
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| posted on 26/9/06 at 08:15 PM |
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I love those engines, the noise they make alone is worth the the effort.
Proper Italian madness noise.
And I love the "Olio" where the oil goes in.
Steve.
[Edited on 26/9/06 by stevec]
[Edited on 26/9/06 by stevec]
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mistergrumpy
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| posted on 26/9/06 at 09:16 PM |
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quote:
Oil levels and belts need to be done on a regular bassis
Yeah I realise all this, I've had the car for 2 years+ now and I do agree, but having spoken with other owners all throughout this period there
are things like oil usage. They always tend to use a bit (which caused problems in my recent MOT), air flow meters on the V6 are a common fault, parts
cost a fortune (£50 for plugs, £40 for leads) but aye as CaLvIN says might be in different platforms so to speak, I'm only speaking for the
GTV/Spider . The sound is great and the looks are real headturning but because of the problems and the price of parts and repairs I'd never have
one again. Shame really.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 27/9/06 at 11:58 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Johnmor
I have used the Alfa 3.0l V6 in my Viento, and it has been a joy to work with.
I removed the engine from a 1990 164 and had it running very quickly (thanks to some wiring diagrams from Trevborg).
Is started first time nd has given little concern since (except when i mixed the plug leads,but it still ran on four cylinders)
The engine has done over 100,000 miles and sailed through the emissions test and has very good oil pressure.
I have worked on many engines including Lancia twin cam, Ford pinto, Citroen 16v Ford CVH and Alfa four cylinders. This is the most satisfying engine
i have used, sounds and responds great with huge torque and power for very little money and effort (190lbs 190BHP and cost me £40.00)
Some Alfas are tempermental but they are an enthusiasts engines and need to be looked after, you cant ignore its needs for 50,000 miles and expect it
not to complain.
Oil levels and belts need to be done on a regular bassis.
I made a conversion plate to allow the use of a type nine. (see archive)
The type nine is a strong box and many put highly tuned four cylinder engines through with little effect, but only paid £30 for the box so why worry.
These cars are light and will wheel spin if high loads are put through the drive train, if in doubt use the T5 box
V6 Dimensionsheights are based useing a sump from a Alfa 75
Height from bottom of sump to top of Plenum Chamber = 640mm (2.5 is 4mm lower)
Width across Cylinder head banks = 540mm
Lenght including distributer cap=710mm
(See pics)
Total weight (dry),no manifolds,alternator etc = 138kgs
Out put 192 BHP
In short it gives me what i want and almost nobody else has it.
Great!!!!!!
Hope that helps
have you used the FWD 'box to make the bellhousing, looks like you have, very neat and a superb idea!!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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clutch_kick
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| posted on 27/9/06 at 01:21 PM |
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I'm a japanese engine fan myself. more specifically a toyota-nut. I have a lot of experience with the 3S-GTE anf the 4E-FTE (which by the way
would make an excellent locost engine), but ... Italian engines have something different to them ... they're unreliable ... but seem to be able
to make endless power.
I've seen alfa V6's doing 400bhp+ in hillclimb cars in Scicily, and they are just bl**dy fantastic. My friend's 1.4 litre Uno turbo
ran up to 2.2bar boost at 8000rpm, the wastegate pipe came off!! Nothing happened!! the car just went faster lol!!
Italian engines are like they're women realy, hot, naughty, insatiable, but they need a lot of pampering hahaha
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mistergrumpy
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| posted on 27/9/06 at 02:00 PM |
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And leak God only knows what from God only knows where for a least one week every month and are never in the mood for playing when you are!
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Peteff
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| posted on 27/9/06 at 02:18 PM |
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It's not the engines that are unreliable it's the electrics. I had a Sud which was a pleasure to drive but it used to flash it's own
headlights and do all manner of strange tricks like indicate with the wipers.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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mistergrumpy
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| posted on 27/9/06 at 02:22 PM |
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Yeah electrics are another thing. My central locking sometimes goes crazy and locks me in, daren't leave the keys in and shut the door from
th'outside.
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clutch_kick
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| posted on 27/9/06 at 03:21 PM |
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So i'd be safe running the engine on a Haltech ECU, with a custom made loom. Since it's the electrics that go bugsy. I don't fancy
having an AFM, I prefer a speed/density system with a MAP sensor.
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Johnmor
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| posted on 27/9/06 at 06:09 PM |
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Alfa v6
When I looked at using a conversion plate for the gearbox , I used the bell housing from the front wheel drive box and just threw away the actual gear
housing, I chopped of the section that held the front diff to streamline the bell housing and then made a plate that fitted where th original
gearhousing was. so the primary shaft from the type nine passed through the original whole in the front whell drive bellhousing.
Ihave made some general investigations and i think the actual gear housing is similar on all 164 boxes so the plate should bolt to all bellhousings
used in the Alfa 164. giving engines from a 2.0l 16v up to 3.2 GTA.
As for the electrics, the loom for the engine is totally seperate from the rest of the car so you can just use the loom as it stands, in pre 96 V6
engines it is very simple and only requires four external connections to get the thing to work.
The ecu is made by Bosch and causes little concern. I wouldn't bother making a different loom unless the egine is post 96 even then as long as
you have the original keys its ok.
As a "canny Scott" cost is always at the back of my mind and I dont think you can get 200bhp for less money.
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clutch_kick
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| posted on 28/9/06 at 06:57 AM |
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Nope you cannot ... i'll sift through my archives and i'll see if i can post a video of a Scicilian Osella, running a 3.0 Litre V6, up
the Mt. Etna Hillclimb. it is a 9.6Km hillclimb, and the road is super grippy. As I said, the avrage power of these engines is close to 400bhp,
naturally aspirated.
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Trev Borg
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| posted on 28/9/06 at 09:23 PM |
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The engine is lovely. (would be nice to see a supercharger on top tho'
Owelly's is in the Magenta and running, just needs tidying and a weekend would see it on the road.
Mine will take a little longer.
We made a new sump for mine, its got an oil accumulator to go on, and owelly made the bellhousings.
the links to the build diary's are below.
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=74
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1415
any other info they p.m., or email, will be glad to help with anything.
[Edited on 28/9/2006 by Trev Borg]
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes.
By that time, who cares.
You're a mile away, and you've got his shoes
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clutch_kick
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| posted on 29/9/06 at 10:34 AM |
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ThanKs .. well my only other concern is having to pay 75% tax to register it for road use since it will be a 2.5 Litre
An MNR Vortx RT with a V6 alfa should be quite fun on our short, twisty, hilly roads!! (the few ones without potholes atleast!) An hopefully will
have a nice flat torque curve, to produce a predictable part-time hillclimber.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 29/9/06 at 10:37 AM |
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how is your 75% tax worked out though, is that on new price?
If so, surely as you are building the car, you can invent the new price??
What do you think, must be worth at least 100 GBP??
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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NS Dev
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| posted on 29/9/06 at 10:41 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by clutch_kick
ThanKs .. well my only other concern is having to pay 75% tax to register it for road use since it will be a 2.5 Litre
An MNR Vortx RT with a V6 alfa should be quite fun on our short, twisty, hilly roads!! (the few ones without potholes atleast!) An hopefully will
have a nice flat torque curve, to produce a predictable part-time hillclimber.
Dead right, the beauty of most 2.5 to 3.0 v6's is their torque delivery, not too much low down to spin the wheels up all the time (like most std
v8's do) and better grunt low down than modern 4 valve per cyl 4 cyl engines. V6 is the way to hillclimb in a 7 on a budget (at a price
I'd go for a millington 4 cyl 2.5 ltr but that's going to be £18000 so doesn't really count!)
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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iank
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| posted on 29/9/06 at 11:59 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
how is your 75% tax worked out though, is that on new price?
If so, surely as you are building the car, you can invent the new price??
What do you think, must be worth at least 100 GBP??
I've got a book that claims they cost £250
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clutch_kick
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| posted on 29/9/06 at 08:36 PM |
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Well i'm pretty sure the Tax man won't believe it costs a 100 quid, but ... I'll just let him work it out on the basic kit price
that will be on the shipping invoice
the registration tax varies from 50.5% (cheapest, sub 1299cc engines) to 85% (3000cc and over) calculated on the cost of the car. Unfortunately we
have the highest car registration taxes in europe
I think it is a size issue .. we're the smallest country, so we must do everything extravagantly big ... such as taxes.
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Bo
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| posted on 30/9/06 at 06:58 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by clutch_kick
the registration tax varies from 50.5% (cheapest, sub 1299cc engines) to 85% (3000cc and over) calculated on the cost of the car. Unfortunately we
have the highest car registration taxes in europe
Off topic.
No you don't, the Danish are blessed with 180% tax + VAT and in Norway and Finland they are pretty close to that as well. 
[Edited on 30/9/06 by Bo]
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clutch_kick
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| posted on 30/9/06 at 01:49 PM |
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