Guinness
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| posted on 18/2/08 at 07:26 PM |
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Is there a plumber in the house?
I live in a Victorian Terrace, with a wall mounted gas fired boiler, header tank in the loft and radiators all round the house.
The boiler and pipes are at least 10 years old.
We've been in the house 7 years now, and another radiator has just split!
That makes the bathroom radiator, the hall radiator and the dining room radiator that have all split open in the last two years. All in the middle of
the bottom section.
We have also had a copper pipe split in the bathroom.
None of these have been catastrophic failures, just 2-3mm long cracks which let out a hot spray of water over whichever wall or floor we have just
redecorated!
What is going on? The system has been flushed three times in the last seven years, nearly all the rads have been off to be repainted / wallpapered
behind. I run a corrosion inhibitor in the system too.
Yours confused.
Mike
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eznfrank
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| posted on 18/2/08 at 07:44 PM |
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what pressure are you running in the boiler and are the rads original?
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tomblyth
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| posted on 18/2/08 at 07:52 PM |
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check to see if its a closed system or open system if open system chech there is no blockage in the expansion pipe to the tank!
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joneh
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| posted on 18/2/08 at 08:01 PM |
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If the radiators are original then they could be over 100 years old! No wonder they have rusted through!
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LBMEFM
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| posted on 18/2/08 at 08:05 PM |
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To be on the safe side I would suggest you get a plumber to check the whole system. Check you also have an inhibitor in the system such as
"Fernox" this will prevent corrosion in the copper tubing and cause the problems you are having.
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LBMEFM
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| posted on 18/2/08 at 08:05 PM |
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To be on the safe side I would suggest you get a plumber to check the whole system. Check you also have an inhibitor in the system such as
"Fernox" this will prevent corrosion in the copper tubing and cause the problems you are having.
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Guinness
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| posted on 18/2/08 at 08:22 PM |
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Thanks lads. I've been up to the loft, the tank is clear and there is water flowing into it. (It always does that though!).
The tank does have a lot of brown sludge in the bottom, but it isn't in suspension?
I replaced the pump as well last year.
Joneh, the radiators have a distinctly 70's - 80's feel about them, certainly not your normal Victorian Cast Iron ones!
Guess I'm about to resort to getting a pro in!
LBMEFN, I thought putting a corrosion inhibitor was a good thing!?!? How would it cause the problems?
Mike
[Edited on 18/2/08 by Guinness]
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bob tatt
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| posted on 18/2/08 at 08:25 PM |
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sounds to me like you may well have a blocked feed and expansion pipe you dont say wether the water is blck when they split even if you are now using
an inhibitor the previous owner may well of not and beleive me a poorly installled system with little or no maintainance will sooon get sludged up
another tought is go into the loft and with the heating running have a look at the expansion pie which is the one that goes over the top of the tank
and see if there is water soming out of it this is usually caused by the feed and expansion been in the wrong place to start with or the pump is set
on too hi a speed try to turn the pump down to speed two or even one i would definetly get someone out to have a look and checj the feed and expansion
have been in the connect into the system correctly either of these things can cause the system to pump over and the constant introduction of air into
the system can lead to corrosion very quickly and no amount of flusinh or inhibitor will cure this any more questions just ask rob
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bob tatt
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| posted on 18/2/08 at 08:27 PM |
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sorry you posted while i was typing the system is pumping over as described turn the pupm down and get some one in
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Bigheppy
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| posted on 18/2/08 at 08:32 PM |
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First thing to note is that there should be NO water flowing round the header tank. Does it only flow when the system is turned on? This was a common
problem with system design in the 70's and 80's. Secondly removing radiators for decorating allows fresh water into the system which
contains oxygen which causes corrosion, adding an inhibitor will help but is not a foolproof solution. You really do need to have the system updated
to stop the ''PUMPING OVER'' close coupiling the cold feed and expansion pipe would stop this but must be done by someone who
'knows' what they are doing 
I also type slow 
[Edited on 18/2/08 by Bigheppy]
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Guinness
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| posted on 18/2/08 at 08:34 PM |
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Mr Tatt Sir, I owe you a pint! Pump turned down from 3 to 2 and it has stopped the constant running of water into the tank in the loft (which is full
of hot water now!).
I'll ring around and get a price to replace the radiator, power flush the system and then re-dose the inhibitor. first thing in the morning.
Cheers
Mike
[Edited on 18/2/08 by Guinness]
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bob tatt
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| posted on 18/2/08 at 08:37 PM |
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i assume by close coupleling you meen to pressurise the system. judging by the amopunt of corrosion that has taken place i would not recommend this as
all you will do is find any weak spots and the system is already weak due to the corrosion if id been called out to this fault and the only advice
iwould give is to cure it permanantly pull the lot and put a combi in sounds like its had it too me sorry to be the bearer of bad news but from what
you describe it sounds like the feed and expansion are in the wrong place either too close togeter on the return or on the posotive side of the
pump
disregard this lot of rambelings been a stinker of a day get some one in and while they are ther make surs they have a good look at the feed and
expansion position they should be no further apart than 150 mm and on the negative side of the pump my pleasure to help some one on here at last after
picking brains for so long
[Edited on 18/2/08 by bob tatt]
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LBMEFM
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| posted on 18/2/08 at 08:58 PM |
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Sorry Mike, I meant the inhibitor does prevent corrosion, it's been a long day.
Barry
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MkIndy7
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| posted on 18/2/08 at 09:25 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by bob tatt
the only advice iwould give is to cure it permanantly pull the lot and put a combi in
disregard this lot of rambelings been a stinker of a day get some one in and while they are ther make surs they have a good look at the feed and
expansion position they should be no further apart than 150 mm and on the negative side of the pump my pleasure to help some one on here at last after
picking brains for so long
[Edited on 18/2/08 by bob tatt]
Thank god you redeamed yourself with the last paragraph!.... combi's aren't for everybody, and not even that good really, I certainly
wouldn't have one in my house!, lots of people see them as a cheep easy fix and just throw them in.
I've seen commercial heating systems that have run for years without any adatives or inhibitors in and there fine, but as somebodys already
mentioned its the fact that air has constantly been getting into the system through the water flowing through the tank most probably, the above
commercial heating systems i've mentioned are sealed for years and only lose a tiny proportion of their system volume at any one time.
Yes it is better to have addative in but its not that vital either, I'd advise never to put older radiators from an open vent (tank in loft)
system onto a pressurised one as more often than not they start bursting at the seams or pin-holeing.
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bob tatt
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| posted on 18/2/08 at 10:27 PM |
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thats pretty much what i said sounds like you know a bit in the biz if so in what capacity combis have come long way since the days of reduced flow
rates and very noisy operation a lot more reliable now than ever before all depands what the customer wants do both types of system from flats with
only a shower up to houses with swimming pools and five six bathrooms definatly not a combi kid as the corgi inspector calls them
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MkIndy7
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| posted on 18/2/08 at 11:20 PM |
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I work for Morfitts of Leeds, so mainly commercial and larger houses where the combi's just don't cut it really.
Everybody see's the short term cost and space beniefits but then complains when it takes ages to get hot water through or the waters not warm
enough.. or god forbid a £200 circuit board has failed after only a few years.
I'm only 23 but I work with some older very experienced fella's so I can see both sides of the technology and I have to agree alot of the
older more simpler stuff is so much better, but overlooked for cheepness and space saving and alleged enviromental/emissions improvements.
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SixedUp
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| posted on 19/2/08 at 12:21 AM |
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Interesting discussion. I upgraded my heating system a couple of years back. I looked at combi's but couldn't find one that looked like it
would cope with the demands of the four women in my life. In the end I stayed with my existing (conventional) boiler, converted it to a sealed system,
and added a heat-store. I now have mains pressure hot water in vast quantities / flow-rates, and no tanks in the loft. A nice system, and as there is
no hot water stored under pressure, it was all DIY-able too. As the boiler now normally only recharges the heat store a couple of times a day, it does
long efficient burns - so my gas consumption appears to have actually dropped too.
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MkIndy7
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| posted on 19/2/08 at 07:50 PM |
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Yup thats exactly the system to go for and what i'd recomend.
Just make sure the sacrifitial annode is checked and changed as required (if there is one).
And that the pressure in the expansion vessel is checked and maintained and you should have no problems atall, You can even have the cylinders with
immersion heaters in should the boiler go faulty.
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SixedUp
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| posted on 20/2/08 at 08:22 PM |
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No, no sacrificial anode in the system (or at least, none that I'm aware of anyway). I do have an immersion heater in the cylinder, but apart
from testing it when I commissioned the system, I've never used it yet.
It's been in and working (almost) perfectly for just over 2 years now, and the only issue I've had with it was that the system
wouldn't initially hold pressure (primary circuit). It used to bleed down over a two or three week period, but I could never find any sign of
any leaks. I thought I was going mad 
I eventually tracked it down to a small plastic manual bleed screw (on what appears to be an automatic air-bleed valve) that had been cross-threaded.
When the system was running at full temperature, differential expansion occured, and there was a tiny leak. Barely noticeable, and certainly not when
the system was shutdown ... but enough over a fortnight to lose pressure. Took me nearly a year to find that ...
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MkIndy7
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| posted on 25/2/08 at 06:02 PM |
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It might be worth looking on the parts list in the manual for the cylinder if you've still got it, just to double check there isin't some
kind of annode it in.
I've seen some where the annode is part of 1 of the threaded fittings as the top, water goes into the cylinder through the fitting, but right on
the end of the fitting is the annode.
But that might just be commercial ones where there is alot more water flowing though them all the time and they might not be deemed nesacery for
Domestic use.
I just found 2 big lumps of annode that somebody had cut off at work today... hmm I'll have to think of something interesting to do with
2x6" rods of Magnesium
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