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Roll bar/Cage
richard munnis - 21/10/15 at 07:17 AM

Hi Folks
Is the spec changing for rollbar main hoop for 2016 or am I wrong.

Cheers Richard

JacksAvon - 21/10/15 at 07:54 AM

I dont know.

Where are you getting your information from?

jeffw - 21/10/15 at 08:46 AM

For road going kitcars that compete the MSA are requiring MSA compliant Rollhoops/Cages for 2016

Doctor Derek Doctors - 21/10/15 at 08:48 AM

Lots of information here:

http://www.uphillracers.com/showthread.php/rops-road-going-specialist-production-11471.html

But as Jeff says its not that the ROPS build rules are changing its just that kit cars now need to comply to compete in MSA events.

ali f27 - 21/10/15 at 06:34 PM

Well that probably just did it for me i am sick of spending more an more complying with constant rule changes doubles my budget for next no wonder we cannot get any youngsters into the sport sod em.

jeffw - 21/10/15 at 07:17 PM

Sign the petition then

Petition

[Edited on 21/10/15 by jeffw]

ali f27 - 22/10/15 at 04:48 PM

Signed

Shooter63 - 22/10/15 at 07:28 PM

I've signed even though I don't compete at the moment, I just don't think it's right to bring in such a drastic rule change with hardly any lead in. I am contemplating having a bash in the up to 2ltr road going class sprints, the new change means that the roll bar will have to be higher and with back stays which means the soft top won't fit, and I've got to cut the rear bodywork to fit the stays. If the MSA don't want road going cars to compete, why don't they just ban them.

Shooter

Doctor Derek Doctors - 23/10/15 at 08:43 AM

There are two side to every story, there are cars (largely kit type) running in the road going classes that would put many single seaters to shame in terms of power and speed yet they only have flimsy unnaproved roll hoops.

When I saw the Westfield roll at the NSCC event at Curborough and the roll hoop collapsed I could certainly see the need for a change.

Sometimes things are down to personal choice (I wouldnt compete in anything without a proper cage) but I think we have got to a point where the current speed of Specialist production cars has overtaken the fairly low level roll cage rules and things need to be updated.

A reasonable amount of bile should be aimed at the kit manufacturers here for selling cages as 'competition' that were never homologated. Certainly from the reading I have done that seems to be the case with Westfield, they have been selling the "RAC" roll bar for competition use but although it complied to the rules of the time they never bothered to homologate it so now its illegal. If they had homologated it, all existing cars fitted with it could have carried on competing.

I'm sure I'll get shouted down for this opinion but then again I'm bet people did when they made helmets mandatory.

[Edited on 23/10/15 by Doctor Derek Doctors]

jeffw - 23/10/15 at 08:56 AM

There is nothing to stop you running (until 2016) with no roll hoop at all. I should also point out that kitcars regularly run in other classes (Mod Prod and Sports Libre) with non-compliant rollhoops/cages and have for many years without the Scrutes applying the MSA rules.

You also have no obligation in a road-going class to run full harnesses....I could turn up and use a 3 point inertia belt for instance. We are talking about a road-going class so there is simply a requirement to be road-legal, the MSA have now put requirements on top of this (ROPS and banning some road legal tyres).

Don't forget that Elise/VX220 etc also fall into the kitcar class....I doubt that any of those pass MSA ROPS requirements.

[Edited on 23/10/15 by jeffw]

Doctor Derek Doctors - 23/10/15 at 09:36 AM

Sports Libre (Hill Climb Supersports) cars are already required to comply with section K ROPS so I dont know how people have competed with no roll cage/hoop in that class.

Anyway I'm just making the case that there are two sides to this story, theres no point arguing with me as I dont make the rules but I can see why they are being implemented.

jeffw - 23/10/15 at 10:24 AM

I'm not suggesting nor did I write that Mod Prod/Sport Libre competed with no ROPS. What I'm saying is that the rules are not enforced now let alone when the kitcar classes are dragged in.

How can you mandate a ROPS but allow 3 point inertia belts, how is that safer?

yngndrw - 23/10/15 at 12:21 PM

Speaking of three point belts, as HANS devices are now required from 2016 and HANS devices require a proper harness does this mean that from 2016 all cars competing in MSA events will require full harnesses ?

Doctor Derek Doctors - 23/10/15 at 01:11 PM

quote:
Originally posted by yngndrw
Speaking of three point belts, as HANS devices are now required from 2016 and HANS devices require a proper harness does this mean that from 2016 all cars competing in MSA events will require full harnesses ?


I was under the impression that FHR's (frontal head restraints) are only required for single seater cars for 2016 (which all have proper harnesses anyway).

Ahh found the quote:

It was also decided that from 1 January 2016 an FIA-approved FHR will be mandatory for all Hill Climb and Sprint competitors, except for those in Period Defined Vehicles, Road-going Series Production Cars and Road-going Specialist Production Cars. Nonetheless, it will be recommended for those excepted competitors

So not nesecary for road going kit cars.

You can also by FHR's that strap to your body like the Simpson one:

http://www.jjcraceandrally.com/race/hans-devices/simpson-hybrid-sport-head-neck-restraint

[Edited on 23/10/15 by Doctor Derek Doctors]

yngndrw - 23/10/15 at 04:44 PM

Ah that clears that up, good to know. Thanks.

Mash - 25/8/16 at 07:55 PM

I picked up a Caterham Roll bar cheap on the bay, and it's the same bar as the one I had on my Caterham back in the late 90s. It was approved in those days (avatar is a pick of me in a Lotus7Club sprint at curborough), but I'm guessing it won't be now?

Any thoughts?

[img] Caterham FIA roll bar
Caterham FIA roll bar [/img]

Of course, to make matters worse, I'm fitting it to my MK Indy, so I guess even if it is still legal, it won't be once fitted to the Indy?

jeffw - 25/8/16 at 08:33 PM

It is MSA approved when used with the Petty Strut in a Caterham but I doubt it will be approved in a Indy. Best to ask the MSA technical department.

Mash - 14/1/17 at 08:21 PM

There is now a chap on the MK Indy group on facebook, who has the potential to produce custom built hoops cages to MSA approved standards. He is currently offering 3 choices, rear hoop with diagonal and rear stays, the same with a bolt on front hoop, and the third whihc is rear hoop plus bolt on front hopp with side protection.

Would the first option be OK for hill climbs/sprints ?

jeffw - 15/1/17 at 07:36 AM

Assuming it meets the size/material standards in the 2017 bluebook then yes.

Mash - 15/1/17 at 06:49 PM

Thanks Jeff

CosKev3 - 15/1/17 at 06:55 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mash
There is now a chap on the MK Indy group on facebook, who has the potential to produce custom built hoops cages to MSA approved standards. He is currently offering 3 choices, rear hoop with diagonal and rear stays, the same with a bolt on front hoop, and the third whihc is rear hoop plus bolt on front hopp with side protection.

Would the first option be OK for hill climbs/sprints ?


Any pics of his work?

Or a non Facebook link?

Will be fitting a full cage on mine next winter so researching different cages to see what I fancy

hazbo65 - 17/1/17 at 04:58 PM

I have a 1990 Westfield with their RAC roll bar. The MSA requirements for tube diameter is 40mm for pre-1995 cars. I sent the MSA an e mail and have had a response to confrim that this is the case. As far as I can see if your car is pre-1995 the old style RAC bar will meet the MSA requirements.

lucy - 12/12/17 at 10:41 PM

quote:
Originally posted by hazbo65
I have a 1990 Westfield with their RAC roll bar. The MSA requirements for tube diameter is 40mm for pre-1995 cars. I sent the MSA an e mail and have had a response to confrim that this is the case. As far as I can see if your car is pre-1995 the old style RAC bar will meet the MSA requirements.


You say the MSA requirement is 40mm for pre 95 cars. Does that include specialist production cars and where is that in the blue book?

loggyboy - 12/12/17 at 11:27 PM

quote:
Originally posted by lucy
quote:
Originally posted by hazbo65
I have a 1990 Westfield with their RAC roll bar. The MSA requirements for tube diameter is 40mm for pre-1995 cars. I sent the MSA an e mail and have had a response to confrim that this is the case. As far as I can see if your car is pre-1995 the old style RAC bar will meet the MSA requirements.


You say the MSA requirement is 40mm for pre 95 cars. Does that include specialist production cars and where is that in the blue book?


Its for cages made before 95, not cars.

lucy - 13/12/17 at 08:25 AM

More specifically, 'For roll cages/bars APPROVED prior to 1.1.95'.

I'm not sure how you would prove that it was approved prior to '95 but it surely would have to be fitted to car pre '95?

Could my friend with a pre lit westfield fit a 40mm roll over bar (made prior to '95) to his car? I presume it would need rear stays as per post '95 requirements?

hazbo65 - 13/12/17 at 02:10 PM

The reference to 38mm x 2.5mm being OK for pre '95 is K 1.4.1 a) in the 2016 blue book which is the latest one I have. Although I got confirmation from the MSA about this I think the point for debate would have been evidence of approval in period. Rather than argue this point I decided to construct a bar to the latest requirements. I went for the 50 x 2 option which was slightly lighter than the RAC bar which must have much thicker walls.

loggyboy - 13/12/17 at 03:33 PM

quote:
Originally posted by lucy
More specifically, 'For roll cages/bars APPROVED prior to 1.1.95'.

I'm not sure how you would prove that it was approved prior to '95 but it surely would have to be fitted to car pre '95?

Could my friend with a pre lit westfield fit a 40mm roll over bar (made prior to '95) to his car? I presume it would need rear stays as per post '95 requirements?


I suspect the car and cage would need to have been logged booked and scutineered prior to 95 together.
However - IMO- if they are going racing, a few hundred on a new cage is worth spending when it comes to safety. Not worth cutting corners to save a few quid when it could save a life.

[Edited on 13-12-17 by loggyboy]