me!
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| posted on 2/11/12 at 07:52 AM |
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Can I move my car without tax + MOT?
Morning all.
I'm not sure of the law on this, thought I'd ask on here before phoning the police and asking them.
Basically my car is kept in a council rented garage a few hundred metres from my house. I would like to push it round to my house to weld some bits
and bobs before pushing it back again- no power at the garage. It would have to be on the road whilst being worked on as I won't be able to get
it on my drive (steep with a large lip at the top, it would ground out). It has no tax or MOT but is insured. I reckon on a couple of hours start to
finish max, all prep done before hand and I would be with it the whole time.
Am I legally allowed to do this or am I likely to win myself points/a fine/slap-on-the-wrist if seen? Unfortunately the Police do come down my road
quite regularly, so the chances of being spotted are high.
Any help would be appreciated- we must have a few bobbies on here!
Craig
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ReMan
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| posted on 2/11/12 at 08:10 AM |
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IMHO
no tax= fail
no tax/mot = not insured= Jail with Jimmy
As you say if its regularly patrolled your just asking for trouble
www.plusnine.co.uk
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Slimy38
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| posted on 2/11/12 at 08:23 AM |
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As soon as it touches the road then the rules apply, I wouldn't run the risk. How about renting/buying a generator and getting the work done at
the garage?
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BenB
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| posted on 2/11/12 at 08:36 AM |
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You could try and wangle the "to and from MOT" rule but that would involve organising / cancelling an MOT and although you're
allowed to drive to / from an MOT I'm not sure that includes doing "road side repairs"!
It would be ridiculous if you did get done for "driving" your car on the queen's highway when it's being pushed but the police
aren't always known for their ability to decide what is fair- that's what the CPS is for 
It would be an interesting one if it went to court.
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loggyboy
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| posted on 2/11/12 at 08:44 AM |
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Whilst its not strictly 'law', if you have to repair a car to get it MoTable, then I cant see any sensible copper doing anything about it.
Providing your not taking 'detours' etc. If its only a few hundred yards and your not doing it for weeks/months to the point the
neighbours report it.
Mistral Motorsport
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loggyboy
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| posted on 2/11/12 at 08:45 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by me!
It has no tax or MOT but is insured.
Isnt this an offence now? I thought a sorn car was not allowed to be insured.
EDIT - no its not! duly corrected below!
[Edited on 2-11-12 by loggyboy]
Mistral Motorsport
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computid
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| posted on 2/11/12 at 08:51 AM |
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I can't comment on cars but I know you can push a motorcycle without Tax, MOT or insurance since your not actively using the vehicle on the
public highway. I can only imagine that in a logical society the same laws would apply but in this day and age I'm certainly not promising
anything!
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Slimy38
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| posted on 2/11/12 at 09:03 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
quote:
Originally posted by me!
It has no tax or MOT but is insured.
Isnt this an offence now? I thought a sorn car was not allowed to be insured.
I thought it was the other way round, if it isn't SORN then it HAS to be insured, even if it's in bits in the garage and not going
anywhere?
You'd still want to insure a SORN'ed car, in case it was stolen or something?
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loggyboy
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| posted on 2/11/12 at 09:08 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Slimy38
quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
quote:
Originally posted by me!
It has no tax or MOT but is insured.
Isnt this an offence now? I thought a sorn car was not allowed to be insured.
I thought it was the other way round, if it isn't SORN then it HAS to be insured, even if it's in bits in the garage and not going
anywhere?
You'd still want to insure a SORN'ed car, in case it was stolen or something?
Yes your right! i was getting it confused!
Mistral Motorsport
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flibble
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| posted on 2/11/12 at 09:24 AM |
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quote:
can't comment on cars but I know you can push a motorcycle without Tax, MOT or insurance
In the late 90's I was carted down to the police station for pushing my motorbike which lacked MOT etc, up to the local garage. I had a receipt
etc from the garage I bought it from and had never been in any trouble before (so wasn't a case of pulling the local trouble maker).
Two weeks later I tried again and was duly stopped by a different plod and given a 'notice to produce documents'... The bike was on the
road while I walked next to it on the path which he was not happy about?!? Never dared do it again, lol!
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bob
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| posted on 2/11/12 at 09:41 AM |
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Long shot, but any chance of a local LB member with a trailer who could lend or tow you to house.
Technicaly the car would be on the trailer and not on the road 
Would be cheaper than generator purchase, not sure about hire.
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ShaunB
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| posted on 2/11/12 at 09:58 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
quote:
Originally posted by Slimy38
quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
quote:
Originally posted by me!
It has no tax or MOT but is insured.
Isnt this an offence now? I thought a sorn car was not allowed to be insured.
I thought it was the other way round, if it isn't SORN then it HAS to be insured, even if it's in bits in the garage and not going
anywhere?
You'd still want to insure a SORN'ed car, in case it was stolen or something?
Yes your right! i was getting it confused!
It's not MOT/TAX that drives Insurance but the other way around. If a car is uninsured it must also be declared SORN, but a SORN'd car
does not have to be insured.
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Strontium Dog
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| posted on 2/11/12 at 10:02 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by computid
I can't comment on cars but I know you can push a motorcycle without Tax, MOT or insurance since your not actively using the vehicle on the
public highway. I can only imagine that in a logical society the same laws would apply but in this day and age I'm certainly not promising
anything!
Sorry but I'm certain that's not right.
As soon as your untaxed bike rolls onto the road ridden or not it is an offence. A decent copper may well turn a blind eye to you pushing it across
the road to your neighbours garden for instance, but he doesn’t have to and you can be prosecuted for all the offences you are committing. No
insurance gets you 8 points IIRC and will hike your future insurance costs sky high as they use it as an excuse and say it is one of the most
irresponsible things you can do short of drinking and driving!
Bob has the right idea, get it onto a trailer and work on it. That's what I would do but then I do have a car trailer to hand!
http://s187.photobucket.com/albums/x319/zephyr2000/General%20forum%20uploads/?action=view¤t=3DEngine.mp4
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chillis
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| posted on 2/11/12 at 10:08 AM |
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Only legal way is on a trailer - Sorry. It MUST be mot'd to use on the highway except going to and from your nearest avaiable MOT test centre.
Never under estimate the ingenuity of an idiot!
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chillis
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| posted on 2/11/12 at 10:12 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Strontium Dog
quote:
Originally posted by computid
I can't comment on cars but I know you can push a motorcycle without Tax, MOT or insurance since your not actively using the vehicle on the
public highway. I can only imagine that in a logical society the same laws would apply but in this day and age I'm certainly not promising
anything!
Sorry but I'm certain that's not right.
As soon as your untaxed bike rolls onto the road ridden or not it is an offence. A decent copper may well turn a blind eye to you pushing it across
the road to your neighbours garden for instance, but he doesn’t have to and you can be prosecuted for all the offences you are committing. No
insurance gets you 8 points IIRC and will hike your future insurance costs sky high as they use it as an excuse and say it is one of the most
irresponsible things you can do short of drinking and driving!
Bob has the right idea, get it onto a trailer and work on it. That's what I would do but then I do have a car trailer to hand!
+1 - found out the hard way  Even if you are pushing a motorbike with no engine as I was you are deemed to be in charge of a motor vehicle even if
it doesn't have a motor (that line of defence didn't work for me) in the same way you can be busted for attempting to drive under the
influence if you've had one too many and just put the key in the drivers door lock 
[Edited on 2/11/12 by chillis]
[Edited on 2/11/12 by chillis]
Never under estimate the ingenuity of an idiot!
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ashg
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| posted on 2/11/12 at 10:20 AM |
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the other thing is that you are not actually allowed to work on a car in the road, that's a separate offence on its own.
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
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computid
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| posted on 2/11/12 at 11:27 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Strontium Dog
quote:
Originally posted by computid
I can't comment on cars but I know you can push a motorcycle without Tax, MOT or insurance since your not actively using the vehicle on the
public highway. I can only imagine that in a logical society the same laws would apply but in this day and age I'm certainly not promising
anything!
Sorry but I'm certain that's not right.
As soon as your untaxed bike rolls onto the road ridden or not it is an offence. A decent copper may well turn a blind eye to you pushing it across
the road to your neighbours garden for instance, but he doesn’t have to and you can be prosecuted for all the offences you are committing. No
insurance gets you 8 points IIRC and will hike your future insurance costs sky high as they use it as an excuse and say it is one of the most
irresponsible things you can do short of drinking and driving!
Bob has the right idea, get it onto a trailer and work on it. That's what I would do but then I do have a car trailer to hand!
Well, I pushed my GSXR from one house to the other (about 1/2 a mile) and got stopped by a copper. He was more interested in whether or not I'd
stolen it but he didn't mention tax/mot/insurance.
Whilst I'm not then 100% on the tax front I know I'm right on the insurance and MOT front because pushing does not constitute driving.
Case law has backed this up:
quote:
R. v. MacDonagh (1974). Here the Court of Appeal had to consider another defendant, also disqualified, whose motor car was parked in a London street.
He was asked by a police officer to remove it because it was causing an obstruction. The evidence was that the owner pushed the vehicle standing with
his two feet on the road, putting his shoulder against the door pillar and one hand inside the car on the steering wheel to control its movement. Did
those actions constitute ‘driving’? In giving his judgment, Lord Widgery said:
The essence of driving is the use of the driver’s control in order to direct movement, however that movement is produced. There are an infinite number
of ways in which a person may control the movement of a motor vehicle apart from the orthodox one of sitting in the driving seat and using the engine
for propulsion. He may be coasting down a hill with the gears in neutral and the engine switched off; he may be steering a vehicle which is being
towed by another. He may be sitting in the driving seat whilst others push, or half sitting in the driving seat keeping one foot on the road in order
to induce the car to move. Finally, as in the present case, he may be standing in the road himself pushing the car, with or without using the steering
wheel to direct it. Although the word ‘drive’ must be given a wide meaning, the courts must be alert to see that the net is not thrown so widely that
it includes activities which cannot be said to be driving a motor vehicle in the ordinary use of that word in the English language. Unless this be
done, absurdity may result by requiring the obtaining of a driving licence and third party insurance in circumstances which cannot have been
contemplated by Parliament.
The court decided that on these facts the vehicle was not being ‘driven’.
See here for more: http://blog.bsure.uk.com/the-legal-definition-of-driving/
When it comes to the MOT the road traffic act states that:
quote:
Section 47(1) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 states that it is an offence for anyone to drive, or allow or cause to be driven, a vehicle which requires,
but does not have, a valid Ministry of Transport (MOT) test certificate.
Note the use of the word drive.
I think that it is pretty well established in case law that pushing does not constitute driving and therefore by pushing you don't need 3rd
party insurance, an MOT or a driving licence.
Now, when it comes down to tax I'm not 100% sure. The Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 states:
quote:
29
Penalty for using or keeping unlicensed vehicle.
(1)If a person uses, or keeps, on a public road a vehicle (not being an exempt vehicle) which is unlicensed he is guilty of an offence.
However I would constitute that based upon the Road Traffic Act and the above case law that pushing is not using and therefore provided you
don't intend to keep it on the public highway you should not require tax. If you were really concerned about it you could put some trade plates
on it to cover the tax issue.
I'll await your rebuttal 
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me!
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| posted on 2/11/12 at 11:39 AM |
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Thanks for the replies- not sounding like a very good idea is it?! I'll look into going about it a different way. Buying a house with a garage
would be a good start!
Regarding generators, does it have to be a proper welding specific generator or will a decent sized normal one do the job? For example:
http://www.hirecentres.com/product/4000watt-5kva-open-frame-generator.html
Welder is a Clarke 160 MIG.
Annoyingly I was just hoping to get a few jobs ticked off the list, it sounds like I'd be better off waiting until I have everything that needs
welding ready and doing it in one go. Ah well. That or bolt everything until it's MOT'd then weld.
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rallyingden
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| posted on 2/11/12 at 12:03 PM |
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As above
It is an offence to work on a vehicle on a public highway...... especially welding .......... Hire a generator and do it at the lockup...... or talk
to the nearest house owner !!!
RD
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PSpirine
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| posted on 2/11/12 at 12:35 PM |
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Whereabouts in Leamington are you?
If it's a locost/seven (i.e. not a full size vehicle), I may be able to get a trailer from someone at work (Land Rover, Gaydon) to take it
either to my place or somewhere else where you can do the welding (so long as it doesn't have to be there for days at a time).
Drop me a PM.
Pavel
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BenB
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| posted on 2/11/12 at 01:15 PM |
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How the hell can you be done for "using" a motorbike on the road when it doesn't have an engine? If it hasn't got a motor
it's not a motorbike. It's a bicycle. Bicycles don't need tax or insurance.
Although it might be better if bicycles had to have insurance- might stop the red light jumpers.
Sometimes I dispair at the idiocy of the law (or at least the way it is implemented).
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indykid
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| posted on 2/11/12 at 01:22 PM |
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It being an offence to work on a vehicle in the public highway seemed a little odd to me.
I found this link on coventry city council's
website that states it is only illegal to repair cars on the highway for profit. It is not an offence to repair your own car. The only issue is
with 'nuisance' claims by neighbours.
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Acc8braman
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| posted on 2/11/12 at 01:32 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ReMan
IMHO
no tax= fail
no tax/mot = not insured= Jail with Jimmy
As you say if its regularly patrolled your just asking for trouble
Are you saying the if there is no tax/mot it's not insured? If so, you are incorrect
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owelly
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| posted on 2/11/12 at 03:13 PM |
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Your insurance details when you have cover. It will say your vehicle must be road worthy and comply with the law. The law states that you can drive an
un-mot'd and/or untaxed vehicle to a pre-booked MoT or place of repair. The vehicle must have current insurance.
Even if you are taking said vehicle to a pre-booked MoT test, you are still liable for any offences the vehicle may commit ie. the BiB can have the
car tested and charge you for each fail point, if they so desire.
As far as the other points are concerned, we may be confusing 'driving' with 'using'. You cannot park, keep or store any
vehicle in 'a public place' unless it has tax, test and insurance. This includes pushing it, free-wheeling in it, carrying it wheel-barrow
stylee, or suspended towing it. If any of the wheels are on the road (or public place) then it has to comply. There are a few exceptions to these
rules but they mostly relate to acting under police instructions/recovery. The case noted earlier from 1974 pre-dates several law changes so is not
really relavant, but anyone has a good defence if doing something 'as instructed by the police'. A taxi-driver (or anyone else for that
matter) can jump red lights and exceed the speed limit if so directed by the police.
So back to the OPs question:
No you can't wheel the car to your place and work on it outside. You could ask the local BiB to advise and then park it on a couple of planks,
hence not on the road. Or hire a trailer/genny.
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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JoelP
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| posted on 2/11/12 at 06:20 PM |
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Could he not argue that the car is being pushed to a place for mot repairs, which you can do without mot and tax? I suspect an mot fail sheet would
help here, but you could argue you were getting stuff fixed that you knew would fail a mot. Myself, id drive it round rather than pushing, as this
just draws attention to you.
Contrary to others on this thread, i would definately count pushing a car as being in control of it and requiring at the least a license and insurance
- you could still have a cataclysmic accident if you were a cretin. A bike on the other hand is much less likely to cause a problem.
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