Well, I've tried everything suggested and the bloody thing still won't fire! I've sorted the airbox so it is fitted properly to the airbox, put new plugs in, the only thing I'm reluctant to do is use Easystart. I've had the carbs off and there is no reason to suggest they're out of adjustment as they're clean as a whistle and show signs of anyone having tampered with them. There is no way to check the timing unless the thing is running, and it's not adjustable anyway.
I'm really running out of ideas, any help would be extremely gratefully received as I feel like throwing the towel in at the moment.

You know it makes sense!

Have you jumped it from a car battery?
Rescued attachment 112.jpg

these engines are state of the art technology my engine had been standing for 6 months and fired up first time ticked over beautifully..
you shouldnt have to use easystart or anything like that its not some old morris minor engine..

I have read previous posts mate but no one has mentiond the side stand and clutch cut off??

I wouldnt count them out or I could be well behind and youve already done them..



chris

dont know if they even stop a spark or not

sorry your very first post says it all

do you have much experience of bike engines? I had one still in the bike and could barely start it!

any choke to fiddle with? have you tried dribbling fuel straight down the neck?

easy start isnt a bad idea, it is afterall only a nice flamable gas. Id try it myself once all else was exhausted. Then id also try borrowing a similar cdi to swap in.

Sorry to hear you still have trouble.
Whilst theres a hint of sarcasm in my easystart theory, I needed it to get the Blade engine going and that was in the summer.

easystart and jump leads....
Col

[Edited on 28/11/05 by ReMan]

I dont know whether you've already covered this but how have you fed fuel to the carbs?

If its just gravity fed are you sure the float bowls are full?

My CBR1000 is a bit funny about its fuel delivery pressure and runs on about 2 ctlinders until it gets proper fuel pressure and then all 4 run...

Might be barking up the wrong tree but its worth a shot.

Also - are you sure that you have a spark? You're not, like, checking the spark by touching it against a bit of the chassis and in fact the engine has no earth or anything?

Ive probably shed no new light at all but just in case...

Geoff

are you using the choke?

maybe its just damn cold and needs less air...

Colin

Yep, all the wiring to do with side stand cut out, clutch switch cut out are shorted out, engine is in neutral, kill switch is on, all ok or I wouldn't get a spark. Earth resistance from engine is 9 ohms on very cold day, and I've tested for a spark by earthing plug on cylinder head bolt, both sets of coils are producing sparks, so where to now? I think MK will be getting a call very soon, unless there is a miracle worker out there.

Sorry, forgot to say, choke is on.

The only other thing I can think of is that the battery you are using is a bit flat...

You'd still get a spark at atmospheric pressure but under compression you might not - it is a lovely freshly charged bike battery or car battery??

Geoff

[Edited on 28/11/05 by jambojeef]

quote:

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Originally posted by kurt
Earth resistance from engine is 9 ohms on very cold day, .

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And elaborate too

Battery is a new bike battery for an R1 which spends it's life attached to an optimate if not being used to try to start the engine. The 9 ohms is from the engine block to the earth lead that runs back to the battery from the chassis. It was measured on a very cold day. Should I run another lead from the engine block to the chassis as well as the one from the starter motor mounting bolt in the engine casing which runs direct to the battery negative?

quote:

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Originally posted by JoelP
do you have much experience of bike engines? I had one still in the bike and could barely start it!

yes thanks, shame you should have heard it running before hand,this is what you get for cutting corners!

i was just trying to help after all he hasnt got it started yet so its no better or worse advice than anyone else has given.

he has already done them anyway I just wasnt certain what the cut of switches actually stopped in order to cause immobilisation...its nothing Ive really had to look into!

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colibriman - 28/11/05 at 10:36 PM

9 ohms does seem too high but the engine would turn over more slowly than normal as a symptom if it was struggling to connect and the earth cable might get warm - I assume its turning over quickly enough?

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ReMan - 28/11/05 at 10:41 PM

If it REALLY is 9 ohms then assuming the starter moter is a single wire from the relay and the engine/chassis is the earth to the battery then it would seriously limit the current to the starter, technically 12v/9ohm = 1.33 amps which would not turn the starter! So I suspect the 9 ohms is wrong , but it does need checking, its not going to help. Also check your meter by shorting the leads to check it reads 0 ohms.

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kurt - 28/11/05 at 10:42 PM

Yeah, no problem turning it over. It turns over and over and over and over etc. Even my wife says it sounds good and healthy!

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kurt - 28/11/05 at 10:48 PM

This 9 ohms sounds like something worth checking. I think I'll run another earth lead direct from the block the chassis and see what happens, so I'll sign off for now, will do lead tomorrow when I get in from work and will let you all know.

Cheers for now, Kurt.

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shortie - 28/11/05 at 10:59 PM

Make sure the correct amount of fuel is getting to the carbs by measuring the flow rate at the carb end, I had a problem exactly like you say which turned out to be a blocked fuel filter! changed it and all fine now.

Rich.

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Dusty - 29/11/05 at 12:29 AM

I apologise in advance for what may be a stupid sugestion (I know nothing about bike engines) but is it possible to swop plug leads 2,3 with 1,4 or the LT wires to the coils and thus be trying to fire on the wrong strokes. Can be done on car engines.

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ReMan - 29/11/05 at 08:49 AM

quote:

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Originally posted by Dusty
I apologise in advance for what may be a stupid sugestion (I know nothing about bike engines) but is it possible to swop plug leads 2,3 with 1,4 or the LT wires to the coils and thus be trying to fire on the wrong strokes. Can be done on car engines.

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No apology needed, that was my first suggestion on the original post, unfortunatly it did'nt work

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colibriman - 29/11/05 at 09:04 AM

quote:

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Make sure the correct amount of fuel is getting to the carbs by measuring the flow rate at the carb end, I had a problem exactly like you say which turned out to be a blocked fuel filter! changed it and all fine now.

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that a good point Rich...... too much fuel and it would kill a weak spark (caused by the possibly high resistance earth ?) not enough and it might be too lean to spark when its cold...........

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JoelP - 29/11/05 at 09:30 AM

quote:

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Originally posted by zxrlocost
yes thanks, shame you should have heard it running before hand,this is what you get for cutting corners!

i was just trying to help after all he hasnt got it started yet so its no better or worse advice than anyone else has given.

he has already done them anyway I just wasnt certain what the cut of switches actually stopped in order to cause immobilisation...its nothing Ive really had to look into!

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my fault for not replying with a quote, but i wasnt talking to you that was posted for the thread starter, so dont be offended.

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zxrlocost - 29/11/05 at 11:12 AM

I was only joking anyway

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tks - 29/11/05 at 01:09 PM

disconnect the fuel hose.

And try to start....


while the carbs are emptiered..you will pas the good mixture..and then it will need to fire!

if i was you i would test the fireing order..
i think thats your problem..

because if your spark gets to late or to early it will be pipped in the fuel and it wont spark again!

Sow timing needs time (attention)
If timing is right then you should check the mixture it willl be needed leaner if the sparks get wet, else i will need enrichment!

When my VFR 800 sparks failed, at the start at 20degrees (altough its injection)
it whas like an shower of vapour out of the exhaust! i could even ignit it with my lighter(on the escape exit)!

Sow your spark plugs need to be as wet as uhh...well very wet...

Tks

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Danozeman - 29/11/05 at 04:28 PM

Not meaning to sound stupid.

Are your plugs getting wet with fuel when u turn over? Ie flooding?

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kurt - 29/11/05 at 07:33 PM

Ok, I've fitted an additional earth lead from an engine mounting bolt which screws direct into the block, back to the battery via the earth lead that comes from the battery negative to the chassis. The resistance of the wire is 8 ohms from one end to the other (it's about zero degrees centigrade in the garage). I've tried switching the coils connections 1 and 4 with 2 and 3, and even switched the connections on individual coils. All of these produce a healthy spark on the cylunder head bolt, but still it will not fire with the plug back in the hole. When the plug is out, fule sprays out of the hole when turned over.

As for checking the mixture I don't know how and I don't want to start tampering with the settings on four carbs when I don't really know what I'm doing. I've tried disconnecting the fuel to lean out the mixture as the engine draws the fuel through as I try to start it, still not even a cough or a splutter. This is all with a freshly chardged battery, which is now connected to it's optimate because it was getting flat with trying to start the engine.

Any ideas, anyone, anywhere?

Cheers, Kurt

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rayward - 29/11/05 at 08:23 PM

is it carb'd or injection R1?.

is your fuel fresh, it does "go off" if left for a long time.

Ray

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kb58 - 29/11/05 at 08:37 PM

Okay, first off, it can't be 8 ohms. As others said, if it was 8 ohms, you could pull only a maximum of 1.5amps - the engine would not crank over. So either your meter is wrong, your leads defective, or you're connecting them in the wrong place. And why do you mention room temperature... it doesn't have any measurable effect on the reading.

However, since the engine *does* crank over, it doesn't matter what you measure, as it means it's much, much, less then 8ohms... probably 0.008 ohms is more like it. BTW, that ground wire should be a really fat one, is it? The copper, not the insulation, should be about the diameter of a pencel. Is it?

After cranking the engine for a while, do you smell gasoline near the exhaust? If so, good, if not, find out why. Pull all the plugs and see if they're wet, they should be.

Since you say you're getting a strong spark it means the ignition module is powered and being triggered - good. As others have said though, you need to find out if the spark is happening at the right time, so the engine needs to be timed.

If that's good and it still won't start, eat your pride and use some starter fluid. That'll quickly point to where the issue is.

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JoelP - 29/11/05 at 09:10 PM

sorry, you've undoubtedly already said this, but what fuel pump is it using? Im sure fuel shouldnt splatter out of the spark plug hole.

Also, a small point, but i suspect your meter is set to milliohms, not ohms. Id expect a 12" length of earth cable to have nearly no resistance (ie 0.008 ohms etc)

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tks - 29/11/05 at 09:10 PM

do you use original loom?

Look at the colours of the wires ans ask over here..wich cylinder it should be connected to...

its the fastes method of timing your engine.

also you need to be sure you use coil 1 for example for cilinder 1 and 3 and coil 2 for 2 and 4 its just an example!

it could also be 1 and 2 and 3 and 4..

and then the coils swapped!

sow in fact you have 3posibilities with

2 wire poss sow you could try 6 different setups!

Coil 1 on 1 and 4 / 1 and 3/ 1 and 2
Coil 2 on 2 and 2 / 2 and 4 / 3 and 4

and then the leads swapped from the 2 coils..

sow its not just pick and try.....

if i was i would get the hayness. also when you say you don't want to mess with the carbs.... with a hayness you can do everything even sync them...

Tks

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kurt - 29/11/05 at 09:16 PM

Definitely fuel at the exhaust, very smelly. Engine spinning over fine, I suspect multimeter is on the blink, earth wire is easy the thickness of a pencil. Fuel however is about six months old, so it looks like this could be the next thing to check. Hopefully my wifes car will run ok on 3 gallons of old fuel from my tank when I drain it.

As for using Easystart, it's nothing to do with pride, it's just I've heard from someone who used to teach motor vehicle studies that he wouldn't use it on his engine, because it is so volatile and engines make horrible noises when it's used on them. Also there seems to be vastly coflicting views on here about it's use on a high performance engine.

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kurt - 29/11/05 at 09:25 PM

I'm also relying on the labels on the HT leads for 1 2 3 4, but have not tried switching these around to see if trial and error will confirm if they are correct. The engine is 2000 I think because it has the AIS (air induction system) on it and is carburettor not fuel injection.

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ChrisGamlin - 29/11/05 at 10:26 PM

I assume your interpretation of pistons 1,2,3 and 4 is the same as Yamaha's?

Also once high performance bike plugs have been flooded they are very hard to get working properly again, Ive heard of people having to clean them up with a blow torch before they'll fire again, so even though you've put new plugs in, if its flooded again since that may still be the issue.

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ChrisGamlin - 29/11/05 at 10:29 PM

Another thing to try, when I first ran my blade up I used a small container with a bit of fuel hose coming out the bottom going straight to the carbs (via a T piece to go to both sides). It might be worth rigging up something similar so you can eliminate the fuel pump from the equation, the carbs should be OK to run on gravity fed fuel, or at least splutter.

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smart51 - 30/11/05 at 08:44 AM

My R1 wouldn't start wne I first tried. There seemed to be fuel and spark. I drained the fuel from the carbs and it was orange. eugh! Also, one of the float chambers had hardly any fuel in it.

I removed the float bowls and vaccum chamber covers and cleaned out all the chambers and jets. When I reassembles and primed with clean fuel it sprang into life.

If I were you, I would switch on the ignition and wait for the fuel pump to stop then key off and drain the fuel from the carbs. measure the fuel from each one to see ifthe same amount drains from each one. It won't do any harm and will cost you nothing.

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kurt - 30/11/05 at 07:07 PM

Sounds like I'm going to have to take the plunge and clean the carbs. Thanks for the advice, Kurt

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zxrlocost - 30/11/05 at 07:15 PM

your fuel is 6 months old

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tks - 30/11/05 at 07:16 PM

when you have the plugs out,

the best thing to dry them is with your lighter ( heat them up with the flame)

then they will get dry!

Tks

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kurt - 3/12/05 at 05:44 PM

Had the carbs apart today, checked and cleaned jets etc. put back together still not firing. Last thing to try is draining of all the old fuel, and seeing if that works. Will do that tomorrow and let you all know. Cheers for now, Kurt.

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tony9876 - 3/12/05 at 06:16 PM

If its any help i used to be a fair weather biker and had to renew the fuel on every bike i had after the winter period or i couldnt get them going.

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zxrlocost - 3/12/05 at 06:54 PM

Kurt

am I right in thinking youve done all these different things with loads of effort, but you havent bothered to go and get three quids worth of fresh fuel for it!

Modern Fuel loses its Octane rating so quicky

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Peteff - 3/12/05 at 08:16 PM

Get the blowlamp out and hold them in the flame for 3 or 4 minutes till they are hot, stick them back in quick and then turn it over without any choke so it doesn't flood. Make sure you've drained the float bowls and filled them up with new fuel, they get condensation in them. Fire some carb cleaner down the carbs and look closely at the needles as they get gummed up when they are left in one place in the jet for a long time. Get a good battery so it can turn over for a longer period, jump it off a car battery if necessary as it will take a while till it's all been run. If possible get a hairdryer to blow warm air into it while you turn it over, every little helps even put a spot of petrol down a couple of the plugholes with an eyedropper before you put the plugs back in, guaranteed to fire if you are getting a spark.

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Gernster - 17/12/05 at 07:11 PM

terrible first post for me, but why not just tow it up & down the road & try and jump start it off? Ive had a few tempermental engines in my time & that usually gets them running!

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zxrlocost - 17/12/05 at 07:21 PM

hi hes fixed it mate

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