Its been discussed recently on the BBC website why the UK and Europe would want their own satellite GPS system, when there is an american one we have access to already.

Well, here is our govt's motivation

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4552132.stm

It would give them ownership over the technology to track our cars, tell if we were speeding, and charge for road tolls.

great

atb

steve

But first, tracking devices would need to be fitted to our vehicles. Eventually, all manufacturers will probably do this in the factory.

Do you reckon this would increase the volume of self-built vehicles on our roads

They already have that and insurers already offer high risk drivers a unit which tracks their driving style and other data and calculates a premium based on an as you drive system. Newer fancy systems will only offer slightly more accurate data and not any type of big brother/James Bond tracking, for that you'll need a box in your car still, same as you do now.

Don't worry about vehicle tracking, worry about the "smart tags" when you buy a pair of trousers in M&S...

Sounds like big brother will be watching you through a satelite now too, rather than just through video cameras

i think that alot of people will start to cover their navigation boxes with tin foil to deflect the signal...

I don't buy trousers in M&S. I'm not THAT old

Don't use Sat Nav either - I prefer the 'Old School' method of OS maps.

quote:

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Originally posted by derf
Sounds like big brother will be watching you through a satelite now too, rather than just through video cameras

i think that alot of people will start to cover their navigation boxes with tin foil to deflect the signal...

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Actually, I think the article has misunderstood what can be done.... its talking in terms of the box being able to transmit. Thats not needed at all.

Ive had a GPS system (tomtom one) for a week almost, and the damn thing knows where you are to about 10 feet.

So, if you issue cars with such a device, it can log which roads its been on, and at what time. It could store this internally.

Then, every month, you could plug it into a phone line to get your bill. Or, you would have to take it to the post office (in the same way you buy your road tax) where they would read it and whack you with a bill.

The car could be fitted with an encoder to make sure the GPS unit was in the car (you hadnt left it at home!) and if you trashed the records in it, you could get a default (large) charge, like if you lose a parking ticket in a high cost car park.

The technology is already here to implement road charging...... its in every 160 quid plus Currys GPS system.

atb

steve

I tried public disobedience with a speed cam once, on 'good advice' from the internet.

I got a 150 quid fine instead of a 60 quid one. If the public wanted to stick their neck out, no one has done so with speed cams.

If you hit your box with a hammer, you might just pick up a 'default maximum charge' as per my last post description.

So, you refuse to pay. Then you could get treated as per a council tax dodger. Not paying council tax is the only bill you can get sent to prison by not paying......

little baby steps - thats how stuff like this gets accepted.

atb

steve

quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Allanson

quote:

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Originally posted by derf
Sounds like big brother will be watching you through a satelite now too, rather than just through video cameras

i think that alot of people will start to cover their navigation boxes with tin foil to deflect the signal...

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Good sharp welt with a 4oz ball pein hammer is probably more effective. Thats what I would do if it ever becomes law, stone must have come up and hit it.
Public disobedience is an excellent weapon in this case.

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While ever the means of tracking is electronic, there will always be someone/something out there, able to get around/bypass the system.

A good business opportunity if ever I saw one.

Why would you need to unplug it?

just put a reciever in the road by traffic lights. You stop for the light, it downloads the information!

Think about the other consequences - you have a crash, system remembers you where going too fast, you've got no insurance!

daylight mot - driving after a certain time, system reports you've broken the law

not paid your tax, system will report you and .... you're done!

what about normal MOT - day late, ooops...

oooh, didn't stop at a red light as it was changing.... tut tut!

all possible

and of course, if you don't brake the law, you have NOTHING TO FEAR. no one here brakes the law do they?

of course the next thing is to get an imobiliser built in, break the law and as you drive over the reciever grid you're car stops.......

Mmmmmm, more money for our bottomless pocket chancellor

ATB

Simon

quote:

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Originally posted by Hellfire
While ever the means of tracking is electronic, there will always be someone/something out there, able to get around/bypass the system.

A good business opportunity if ever I saw one.

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I think it was Leeds university that built a system using sat nav that wouldn't allow the car it was fitted to to exceed the speed limit . It knew when you were about to enter a 30 or 40 limit and would reduce the speed of the car accordingly .

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Have a look on the net for Britains upcoming ANPR system. Thats automatic numberplate recognition.
A huge network of cameras covering all roads, and logging all numberplates. Details of every car journey made will be recorded and stored for up to 5 years. This isnt some far-off dream, this is being used in and around London NOW and is due to begin nationwide rollout early 2006. Yes, the next few months.

Its all very well saying you will cover your future GPS tracker with tinfoil or disable it somehow, but your cars movements will be recorded on the anpr system, so it wont take long before people turn up asking if they test you gps tracker as there seems to be a fault with it.

What possible use is the anpr system? they want to track and log your movements, but it is almost certain to be used to monitor speeds. If they wanted to log movements on the motorway network, all that would be needed would be a set of cameras at every entry and exit junction. Why then, are they discussing installing cameras every 1/4 mile? the ONLY POSSIBLE use for that is to monitor your speed constantly throughout your journey.

Every car forum I use where this is discussed has a load of people saying "well, i do no wrong, so I have nothing to fear from this"
I have lost the bloody article now, but the ANPR systems creators talked about it being very usefull in tracking "associated vehicles" Seemingly, they reckon criminal types often travel in convoys, so intend to use the ANPR system to log which cars are in the vicinity of criminals cars. You may think you have nothing to hide, but simply spending a length of time behind somone on the motorway who is of interest to the police, will automatically make you a suspect too.

Big Brother isnt just watching, he is taking very carefull notes about where you are, where you have been, where you are likely to go, and how fast you get there.

This isnt widely known as nothing has been really anounced about it, and its really too late for us to do anything about it now.

This sort of thing WILL be the death of car ownership for enjoyment in the UK. May as well sell up the kits and buy nissan Micras, because unless you do trackdays, you are going to have a difficult time driving for fun on the roads.

its sposed to be done by a chip in your number plate (maybe lnked to euro wide plate q elsewhere) and will be checked at every MOT.
they have been talking to petrol station owners as well,as you say BIG BRO IS WATCHING!

quote
This sort of thing WILL be the death of car ownership for enjoyment in the UK. May as well sell up the kits and buy nissan Micras, because unless you do trackdays, you are going to have a difficult time driving for fun on the roads.
unquote

translation = speeding?

atb

steveText

[Edited on 29/12/05 by steve_gus]

Build your own car

Then...

NO SVA
NO MoT
NO Insurance
NO Car Tax
NO V5
NO Registration

An invisible car, there will be no police on the road to catch you, as the eye in the sky will be doing his job.

Going for a blat will be even cheaper. Roll it on?

Good enough reason to use a map and not numpty gps thing then

Funny isn't it how people always bemoan the decrease in civil liberties caused by high tech surveailance, but no-one ever does anything about it.

Government is their to represent the people and to provide sevices for them. Govenments are not kings and have no legal privalage to rule them, yet we just let them take as much as the wish and just whinge.

not quite true ..........

the goverment has two responsbilities, one to you the electorate, therefore they must pass reasonable and sensible laws that you will vote for,

the second is to you the electorate, for whom it must pass laws that are in the countries greater good. These are often unpopular laws at the time.

For example, we're all complaining now, but we're not seeing the larger picture. The gov. wants to do lots of things, this (if its real and not just us speculating) will be part of the wider view. Of course this occasionally falls down because we're only human and make mistakes and occasionally power mad bar stewards / incompetent gits get into power.

Hence every four years we get the chance to 'correct' things.

Going back a bit, in france on the motorways they have number plate recognition things at the toll booths. It measures your average speed by how long it takes to get from one to another, and you can get done for speeding that way, which is pretty undefendable. And poo.

Triton - GPS exists courtesy of the american military - wether we use it or not for car guidance. So, ignoring it wont make it go away....

regarding 'why dont we vote govts out with big brother attitudes' - I think the answer is pretty simple.

We get a vote once every five years. With it, we have to decide what we supposedly want from a govt. Law and order, schools, defence, foreign policy, health, motoring laws, economy, pensions, mortgage costs blah de blah de blah.

So, if you are a bit pi$$ed off over sat tracking of cars, are you going to vote out a party that follows your ideals on all the other issues? Affects your mortgage or job prospects? Probably not.

People were very unhappy with thatcher and the poll tax, but the cons still got in another 2 times. People were pi$$ed about Iraq, but Tony still got back in.

We put up with a lot, and I dont think the brits are the 'revolting' kind. Unlike the French


atb

steve

Do you have any proof that this is so - can you provide web links to evidence? Its that ive heard this a lot, and wonder if its just a modern myth. The version I have heard is that police can stop you and look at your ticket and manually calculate.

Even if you are a UK license holder, the French police have the power to ban you at the road side......

atb

steve

quote:

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Originally posted by jon_boy
Going back a bit, in france on the motorways they have number plate recognition things at the toll booths. It measures your average speed by how long it takes to get from one to another, and you can get done for speeding that way, which is pretty undefendable. And poo.

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I suspect the French toll booth thing is an urban myth.

Plenty of people know a mate whos brother in laws cousin got caught this way though, but I have never spoken to anyone who has been caught themselves.

I did three road-trips through France from north to South in the last 10 months, mostly on the toll motorways and mostly at rather high speeds and never had a problem. Even when I have been blasting along at speeds that would merit a ban on a uk motorway, there have been plenty of people going faster than me too.

I once saw a speed trap on a minor road entering a village, but I wasnt speeding so had no issues.

My French teacher went on about this during a lesson at school about, ahem, 20 odd years ago. Better than learning French at the time.

Anyway, he said this had been implemented but was withdrawn when hundreds of cars stopped on the hard shoulder before the booths waiting for their 'punch' time.

As I say, this was a few years sgo.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Allanson
Good sharp welt with a 4oz ball pein hammer is probably more effective.

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if you think this smells too much like 1984 by george orwell,i was told his real name was......
...........BLAIR !

Who gives a poo if 'they' know where you have been?

There is very little fuss made about corporations data harvesting and they do it all day every day. You can't fart in a Tesco store without it going on your customer file and there is very little stopping them from doing just about anything with that data. At least 'they' would have to justify the use of the data and it might actually be put to good use??

i dont have a tesco card for that reason..... however they prob know me by the debit card i use.

im waiting for the day that the govt has weigh scales at the tills for the customers, and looks at the food you just bought. 'put the sausages and cakes back on the shelf you fat bitch' would be more interesting than just the beeping of the till

atb

steve

I dont have any loyalty cards either. I pay by cash, I have an unregistered PAYG mobile and I do everything I can to stay off any databases.

No, Im not a terrorist and I dont wear a tinfoil hat, I just dont like my details, my movements and any other aspect of my privatelife being logged and open to the scrutiny of anyone who wants a look.
Its a free country, allegedly, and Im simply excercising my right to be unnoticed.

Thats not my real name, and Im typing this from a public access internet phone box in an area where there are no cctv cameras

Elections are a prety blunt tool for choosing governments. They are often in it to impose their way of thinking onto the country. The community charge / poll tax was jsut such a measure. It was a rare occurance when a political leader lost her job over unpopular legislation. Like has already been said, your vote is given to the party most likely to defeat the one you dislike most, taken on balance over many issues. "the other lot" are no less likely to introduce big brother like schemes than "the current lot" and so a vote has little influence on such schemes.