Beardy
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 posted on 29/12/11 at 05:41 PM |
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Diesel - bear with me...
Diesel – I have searched and read the posts and am still intrigued. I know that a MEV Rocket has been built as have the original Weasel and more
recent westfield in Ireland/Australia. I have also read comments about the effects of weight and preferring a lighter engine.
I recently learned that the 1.6 TDCI focus/fiesta is relatively light (engine stated as <120Kg) and can be persuaded to provide 130bhp. I am
curious about its use in midi with its complete drivetrain.
Does anyone have the engine / transaxle weights and external dimensions for this beastie and can anyone speak to the complexity or any hurdles in
using this in a midi. I am assuming that the management would have to be transplanted complete and with the drive by wire pedal assembly.
thanks
Beardy
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big-vee-twin
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| posted on 29/12/11 at 05:55 PM |
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Sorry don't know about the weights, but I do know that when they built the MEV they had to use the original ECU with the Dash still connected
and some ancillaries as they couldn't fool the ECU and remove them.
I understand the builder put the dash and all the associated bits inside a metal box and hid them away behind the drivers seat.
Then he was able to build the Dash he wanted, there's a write up in kit car magazine somewhere.
So It would seem the electronics can be fun.
Also welcome to the Forum.
Duratec Engine is fitted, MS2 Extra V3 is assembled and tested, engine running, car now built. IVA passed 26/02/2016
http://www.triangleltd.com
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 29/12/11 at 06:02 PM |
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I simply can't understand the reasoning for even considering a crappy diesel in a lightweight kit car, unless you are going to be do some
serious mileage in it? These are weekend toys to enjoy being driven, not something to slog along for 20,000+ miles a year where you put up with the
crappy engine to make the fuel savings.
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PSpirine
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| posted on 29/12/11 at 07:00 PM |
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First of all, welcome to the website. You'll love the mad house
As for the diesel.. what is your reason for wanting to build one?
If it's just to try and do something different, then fair enough, by all means give it a go, and make sure to post your progress on here!
If you want it to try and be sensible, make sure you do your homework before going ahead. How much are you realistically going to drive this car? How
much fuel savings will a diesel ultimately give you? How much money does that translate into (looking at your location, I'd say petrol is not
massively expensive so the savings would be even less!).
You'll find that with all the extra work associated with getting a relatively powerful (i.e. very modern) diesel to run, you'd much rather
spend that enjoying driving your car.
If you want something different, why not try getting something to run on ethanol? I understand you can get it quite easily in USA for not extortionate
amounts of money?
Just make sure you've thought rationally about what you're going to do.
Either way, we'll be here to help! 
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BigFaceDave
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| posted on 29/12/11 at 07:03 PM |
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The focus 1.6tdci engines (DLD416 engines) are Peugeot engines and are fitted in some Mazdas volvos and peugeots aswell as the focuses so you might be
able to find specs on the engine under those cars.
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Mr C
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| posted on 29/12/11 at 07:07 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
I simply can't understand the reasoning for even considering a crappy diesel in a lightweight kit car, unless you are going to be do some
serious mileage in it? These are weekend toys to enjoy being driven, not something to slog along for 20,000+ miles a year where you put up with the
crappy engine to make the fuel savings.
I'm not sure what diesels you've driven to class them all as crappy, for example the BMW 335 diesel point to point, is no slower than an
M3. Indeed the current crop of Common rail diesels are very refined and have an abundance of torque. My daily driver is a 170bhp diesel that is good
for 140mph.
Whilst I understand where you are coming from in relation to putting a diesel in a weekend toy, I wouldn't be adverse to a twin turbo V6 diesel
set up in a Spire. With 260bhp and over 400ftlb it would be quite interesting.
Everyone to their own.
Girl walks into a bar and asks for a double entendre, so the barman gave her one
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Beardy
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| posted on 29/12/11 at 07:13 PM |
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Hi Mike,
I am not advocating this as the best option - merely one that I am considering.
The primary reason against diesels appears to be the weight and this engine is allegedly lighter than a duratec. It seems to offer adequate power -
people seem happy with lumps producing this kind of power and typically swap out the crossflow due to weight/handling issues. Chipped it will provide
buckets of torque and this again, is less of an issue in a midi (though I have seen pictures of the diesel powered strimmer).
You dont need such a big fuel tank and the exhaust can also be lighter and less space consuming.
Yes it makes a different noise, and yes it is a stinky fuel, but if the throttle response is OK, then much of the arguments against seem to be more of
the religous kind rather than the ones based on evidence.
I would like to know more (primarily confirmation of the weight and exterior dimensions) before I discount it.
B
[Edited on 29/12/11 by Beardy]
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dinosaurjuice
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| posted on 29/12/11 at 07:26 PM |
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i put the donk in the rocket. never regretted a single mile. Goes like stink and is buckets of fun.
really wouldnt recommend a common rail engine though, there just too complicated as i found out.
If i were to do build again it would be VW 1.9 tdi 'PD' engine, easily upped to 200hp, fairly refined and dead easy to wire up.
my HDi is currently running about 180hp with over 300lb/ft's of torque. as for exhausts... ive never bothered.]
will 
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jimmyjoebob
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| posted on 29/12/11 at 07:33 PM |
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I love the idea of putting a stonking modern diesel in something like a Locost.
The Volvo D5 engine is the most evil sounding diesel I have ever heard with awesome, tree stump pulling torque. They can be chipped to a reliable 400
hp from what a lot of people say... yes, please!
V8s are mostly about torque so what is so strange about fitting a modern diesel?
If at first you don't succeed, hide all evidence you ever tried!
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Beardy
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| posted on 29/12/11 at 07:34 PM |
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docket
Hi Will,
I note your commments about the wiring and appreciate where you are coming from. However, the older diesels are really heavy and that puts me off the
1.9TDi.
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big-vee-twin
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| posted on 29/12/11 at 07:38 PM |
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Dont think the Diesel is lighter than a Duratec, they come in at less than 100kg's.
I can actually lift mine in my arms!!
Duratec Engine is fitted, MS2 Extra V3 is assembled and tested, engine running, car now built. IVA passed 26/02/2016
http://www.triangleltd.com
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dinosaurjuice
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| posted on 29/12/11 at 07:40 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Beardy
Hi Will,
I note your commments about the wiring and appreciate where you are coming from. However, the older diesels are really heavy and that puts me off the
1.9TDi.
not sure on the exact weight. but an engine with a knackered CAN network wont move 
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Beardy
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| posted on 29/12/11 at 07:40 PM |
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according to exhaustive internet browsing:
Duratec 2.0 95Kg for a bare longblock (119Kg ready to install)
This is with lightweight steel flywheel at 4.7Kg – so add another ~5Kg for standard ford item
so best figures I could come up with were close to 125Kg ready to install as standard.
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BigLee
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| posted on 29/12/11 at 07:58 PM |
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I've got the 1.6d in my V70. It isn't quick, but then it weighs lots! I revs far more freely than the 2.0d. If you are putting it in a mid
engine set up, bear in mind the turbo is mounted at the front of the engine, therefore just behind you. Warm kidneys?! As well as the weight of the
engine, consider the additional bits like pipework and intercooling. Even a tiny lump like this needs to be intercooled. Good effort though in
considering it. As a fast road car the torque will make things fun. Welcome to the forum!
Lee
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Beardy
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| posted on 29/12/11 at 08:31 PM |
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in a midi it probably needs to be a water to air intervooler with a rad up the front.
its another thing to consider though.
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 29/12/11 at 10:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr C
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
I simply can't understand the reasoning for even considering a crappy diesel in a lightweight kit car, unless you are going to be do some
serious mileage in it? These are weekend toys to enjoy being driven, not something to slog along for 20,000+ miles a year where you put up with the
crappy engine to make the fuel savings.
I'm not sure what diesels you've driven to class them all as crappy, for example the BMW 335 diesel point to point, is no slower than an
M3. Indeed the current crop of Common rail diesels are very refined and have an abundance of torque. My daily driver is a 170bhp diesel that is good
for 140mph.
Whilst I understand where you are coming from in relation to putting a diesel in a weekend toy, I wouldn't be adverse to a twin turbo V6 diesel
set up in a Spire. With 260bhp and over 400ftlb it would be quite interesting.
Everyone to their own.
I guess so. Modern diesels are quite refined compared to older ones, but still not as refined as a petrol. However, the main thing I have against
diesels is the power delivery and very limited RPM range. They just suck all the fun out of driving, even though you can get some very quick diesel
powered cars.
I had the misfortune to drive a 1.6 TDCi Focus hire car recently, and it's nowhere near the BMW engines in terms of refinement. It's a
slug in the Focus (and it only returned ~44mpg on a 500 mile round trip), though I appreciate the Focus is a heavy car and performance would be pretty
good in a kit. However, the torque comes in with a major kick at very low RPM and it's pretty much all spent by about 3000RPM (it took forever
to wheeze it's way much above that). Totally the wrong sort of characteristics for a small sports car, where an engine should have progressive
power delivery with no nasty torque spikes to upset the balance, and it should thrive on revs (IMO obviously).
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 29/12/11 at 10:20 PM |
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I'd worry about the noise. All the Diesel engined cars that I have owned have had lots of sound insulation to minimise the rattly sounds (fuel
pump?). You don't want to put lots of sound deadening into a kit.
Maybe listen to the engine with the bonnet open before you make your final decision.
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Beardy
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| posted on 29/12/11 at 10:24 PM |
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all good points
thanks
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Simon
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| posted on 29/12/11 at 11:38 PM |
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I can't understand the arguments against diesel either - have mentioned in the past that I'd like to try a diesel in something.
As for the lack of revs and massive torque in a lightweight car, both can be overcome using a lower ration diff. This brings the effective torque at
rear wheels down and makes up the difference in lack of revs.
As for the noise, if you've been on a bike with noisey pipes, the sound becomes irrelevant above about 40mph cos you leave the sound behind
ATB
Simon
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orton1966
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 06:55 AM |
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Go For It!
Although not something I’m considering I also can’t see the problem with using a diesel, they just have their own characteristics. Just like a bike
engine and a big V8 are very different but both can be fun to drive. Even the race LMP diesel engines don’t rev but they are still devastatingly quick
and even though the drivers admit they are different to drive I’m sure they don’t find them dull!
I personally have always enjoyed driving diesels, I find something feels good about hustling them along on a wave of torque, in some ways it is like
driving a tuned petrol engine with a narrow power-band, it’s just that it all happens lower down the rev range.
Anyway, I say go for it! Go midi, make it LMP inspired and you’ll have something that more closely reflects the way modern LMP’s are going.
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graememk
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 07:31 AM |
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have you looked into the fiat engines 1.9 150bhp, easy mapped to 200 bhp, found in the alfa 159 vecta and saab 93.
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scootz
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 08:47 AM |
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As they said (repeatedly) in the Highlander movie... THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!!!
Yes, it weighs the same as the moon, but it will drag Uranus no problem!
It's Evolution Baby!
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 09:33 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by matt_gsxr
I'd worry about the noise. All the Diesel engined cars that I have owned have had lots of sound insulation to minimise the rattly sounds (fuel
pump?). You don't want to put lots of sound deadening into a kit.
Maybe listen to the engine with the bonnet open before you make your final decision.
I've got a Renault megane 2.0td and it purrs better than some petrol cars I've had. No diseasal noises at all! Sounds like a petrol.
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 09:35 AM |
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Good testament to diesel power is the le mans racers produced by Audi that won a few years back. I love the Jidda, especially with some producing an
easy 200hp+ with enough torque to spin the wheels off the rims.
Found Here
[Edited on 30-12-11 by MakeEverything]
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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phelpsa
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 09:54 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MakeEverything
Good testament to diesel power is the le mans racers produced by Audi that won a few years back. I love the Jidda, especially with some producing an
easy 200hp+ with enough torque to spin the wheels off the rims.
That was a good testament to rule changes giving diesels a big advantage
I'd love a go out in one if someone made it work, but diesels just don't make driving exciting. A 335d might be fast, but most drivers
cars don't need to be massively fast to be fun.
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