Minicooper
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| posted on 20/11/11 at 09:37 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick DV
quote:
Why bother, you have nothing positive to add or even slightly constructive, so just get lost. I don't believe you ever come up with the goods in
any form at any price. I will buy one of your boxes at £400, I don't need one but I would do it so it cost you money, it has to be a
finished/tested and proved to be fit for purpose
Cheers
David
Surely, you cannot be serious!! 
Cheers, Nick 
[Edited on 20/11/11 by Nick DV]
Serious? in which way, would I consider buying one of these none existant boxes from Neville, yeah why not, it won't happen, so my £400 is
completly safe
David
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Nick DV
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| posted on 21/11/11 at 08:58 AM |
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quote:
Serious? in which way, would I consider buying one of these none existant boxes from Neville, yeah why not, it won't happen, so my £400 is
completly safe
David
That's your choice. Would you consider buying the one - an unknown and unseen quantity, that's over twice the price - from the chap in
America? (I have no axe to grind with him or any reason to 'dis' his product, apart from cost). Are you also the position whereby you can
make a honest judgement on both probucts - and people for that matter - before you go ahead and make comments on them? Personally, I don't think
you are!
Cheers, Nick
"The force will be with you, always!"
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MikeFellows
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| posted on 21/11/11 at 09:17 AM |
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I have a MK reverse - no disrespect to MK but its not the most elegant solution Ive ever seen, its using off the shelf parts and still costs £350 (I
think a few people have sourced there own parts and knocked £100 of this price)
now to design and make a solution to do this and make a profit I dont believe for one minute anyone could do for £400 - the parts might cost £400, but
labour, overheads, prototyping, testing, marketing, insurances (and all this needs to be done - as if it decides to come apart at 10,000rpm you
probably dont want to be sat next to it!)
then you have the low volume - how many BEC owners are there? how many of those BEC owners are likely to purchase one?
I dont think you would sell more than a few hundred globally when your competing against quaife who come with a exceptional reputation in motorsport
(be it true or not)
I see how quaifes costs £700 (partly paying for the brand I admit), and I see how a person trying to make a solution could end up nearer the £1000
mark.
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 21/11/11 at 04:44 PM |
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To all the naysayers...
Look up gearcutting companies, ask them to give you a price to cut 10 sets(pairs) of straight spur gears with dog faces, say with a 75mm effective
diameter, and an internal spline of 30mm od and six splines.
You should get a price of about £400, I did, but that may include a small discount for being a long term customer of sorts. And because there are 3
and a bit pairs in the gearbox, I get ten full sets for £1200.
These guys used to cut gears for top F1 Teams, and still do, and I've dealt with them since 1989. And no, I won't be telling anyone who
they are, not publicly at least. The UK is awash with gearcutting companies, and they are very competitive at this point in time.
I can get the cases and external shaft supports done as rough castings in Southampton, for £800 for ten sets.
The gearcutters will cnc the cases and externals, and provide the shafts to what is designed. That leaves shift forks, which I have yet to decide on
materials, but when I do, I would see them costing about the same as a pair of gears.
Bearings are standard shelf items, as are the seals. About £30 all up per box.
Add it all up, and you finish well short of £400.
Ideally, I would have liked to get gears from one of the race 'box makers, and also the shift forks to match, then it's a simple exercise
to build the rest of the 'box. BUT, when they find out what you are doing, the prices skyrocket, and you may as well give them a blank cheque.
Hence, the need to get everything custom made, and at normal industrial prices, NOT MOTORSPORT PRICES!
I said at the start of all this, that I see no market worldwide that would support a small business full time, so what I make will be for my own use,
and the few who will benefit from the prices I get by ordering enough to build ten units. I'll probably hang on to two or three for my own
use.
As for warranties, the bearings aren't a problem, been used in racing boxes for yonks, shift forks will not be any less strong than what's
in your everyday drive, and may even end up being a shelf item from somewhere, and the gears will be to the same standard that a big name racing
gearbox mfr gets.
But, none of this will happen until at least March 2012, as I've got a couple of paying projects to do in the interim, mostly so that I can make
a reverse box for the bec I'm building, which will need a reverse to comply with rules.
If people don't want to buy because the price is too low, then their problem.
I see no reason to grossly overprice an item, other than greed, and people will pay what the market dictates. If I end up making 100/year, then that
is still only a man in a shed for a week or two every month. Not a multi million £ operation by a long way.
You don't have to buy what I will make, nor even read what I've put. Your choice.
Cheers,
Nev.
[Edited on 21/11/11 by Neville Jones]
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 21/11/11 at 05:02 PM |
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I'll add this bit extra.
Everyone should be familiar with what a VW aircooled gearbox is. A large number will know what a Hewland Mk9 transaxle is.( A VW aircooled case with
Hewland guts and rear casting.)
In the late 80's I had a discussion with a guy at Hewlands, and asked why their Mk9 at the time was over £2000, and a spanking new VW box was a
bit over £300. The Hewland guy got up and walked away, never to be seen again. I was after a few boxes, and ended up with a USA made copy. Both the
yank box and the UK box used a VW factory sourced gearcase, and both bought them by the 100 or more from VW in Mexico or Brazil, so churned out a lot
of boxes.
You see, the VW box has helical gears, synchros, and all the extra work which that entails. The Mk9 is straight cut and dog engagement. Cheap and
chearful to make as a gearcutter sees it, when compared to the VW. And the Mk9 gears are not made from any better material than the VW, as was
attested to by a metallurgical report.
So, there is no reason on this earth why the Mk9 should be any more expensive than the VW, and many why they should have been cheaper. This is where
greed comes in, and 'what the market will pay'.
You argue among yourselves, but if I can bring some sense to just a few people, I'll have achieved what I wanted, and everyone involved will be
the happier for it. I'll have three, and I've got a few people contacted me, so the rest will move on fairly easily when the time comes,
but these will cost a bit more than the first lot.
Wait until I turn my efforts to a 'box similar to the Caterham six speed, then the ship will hit the sand big time. Costs are as above, just add
a few gears and shifters. A Ford Type 9, brand new in 1989, was a little under £300 from Power Products. A new rwd MT75 from Power Products is about
the same as a recon anywhere else. And that is with Ford making a profit. Think about it.
Cheers,
Nev.
[Edited on 21/11/11 by Neville Jones]
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 21/11/11 at 05:19 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Minicooper
quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
My version will be more costly, now priced at £1200, with choice of overdrives(£1500), so is much better!  Still won't cost more than a third
of that to make. But, if the mugs want to pay, I'll take the money. Next April/may when I get to it. Already got designs and prices, still got
to make the patterns for the box and external shaft supports.
Cheers,
Nev.
Why bother, you have nothing positive to add or even slightly constructive, so just get lost. I don't believe you ever come up with the goods in
any form at any price. I will buy one of your boxes at £400, I don't need one but I would do it so it cost you money, it has to be a
finished/tested and proved to be fit for purpose
Cheers
David
Did you not see the price you will pay in the text you quoted? Your price is £1200.
Cheers,
Nev.
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phelpsa
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| posted on 21/11/11 at 08:35 PM |
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Sorry Nev...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HdBOd_I-FM
[Edited on 21-11-11 by phelpsa]
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bobinspain
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| posted on 22/11/11 at 08:26 AM |
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An order of magnitude better than the real thing.
quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
Sorry Nev...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HdBOd_I-FM
[Edited on 21-11-11 by phelpsa]
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MikeCapon
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| posted on 22/11/11 at 08:53 AM |
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The subject of manufacturers making 'huge' profits often comes up on here and it surprises me that certain, apparently very clever people,
fail to understand why companies have to make a reasonable margin on the goods they manufacture.
The man in the shed making bits as a hobby sees no other costs other than the bits he is bolting together. A company however has a heap of other bills
to pay. Rent, rates, taxes, salaries, insurance, marketing, tools/equipment, electricity, telephone, bank charges... The list goes on and on.
The fact is that in small scale manufacturing a gross margin of less than 50% is likely to be insufficient to stay in business. That may seem
excessive at first until you do all the sums. This is another reason why really professional companies tend to avoid markets with lots of men in sheds
supplying. It is impossible to compete.
As for your man who is making the reverse/overdrive unit, good luck and don't let this obsession with price, drive you into compromising the
quality of your product. A few pounds extra on a price will, of course, make people think twice. A reputation for noisy, leaky, unreliable units will
mean they don't even consider buying in the first place.
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Nick DV
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| posted on 22/11/11 at 09:08 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeCapon
The subject of manufacturers making 'huge' profits often comes up on here and it surprises me that certain, apparently very clever people,
fail to understand why companies have to make a reasonable margin on the goods they manufacture.
The man in the shed making bits as a hobby sees no other costs other than the bits he is bolting together. A company however has a heap of other bills
to pay. Rent, rates, taxes, salaries, insurance, marketing, tools/equipment, electricity, telephone, bank charges... The list goes on and on.
The fact is that in small scale manufacturing a gross margin of less than 50% is likely to be insufficient to stay in business. That may seem
excessive at first until you do all the sums. This is another reason why really professional companies tend to avoid markets with lots of men in sheds
supplying. It is impossible to compete.
As for your man who is making the reverse/overdrive unit, good luck and don't let this obsession with price, drive you into compromising the
quality of your product. A few pounds extra on a price will, of course, make people think twice. A reputation for noisy, leaky, unreliable units will
mean they don't even consider buying in the first place.
Hi Mike,
I sort of understand why you would be saying this, though I do not agree with a lot of it.
I have already said that I would not 'knock' anyone's product, but I do not believe that the bloke in the States, and definitely not
Nev, would let price compromise quality - or safety!
I would also point out your comment that "a reputation for noisy, leaky, unreliable units will mean they don't even consider buying in
the first place" - does that not apply to the Quaiffe reverse box, yet so many people buy them?
Cheers, Nick
"The force will be with you, always!"
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bobinspain
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| posted on 22/11/11 at 09:19 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeCapon
The subject of manufacturers making 'huge' profits often comes up on here and it surprises me that certain, apparently very clever people,
fail to understand why companies have to make a reasonable margin on the goods they manufacture.
The man in the shed making bits as a hobby sees no other costs other than the bits he is bolting together. A company however has a heap of other bills
to pay. Rent, rates, taxes, salaries, insurance, marketing, tools/equipment, electricity, telephone, bank charges... The list goes on and on.
The fact is that in small scale manufacturing a gross margin of less than 50% is likely to be insufficient to stay in business. That may seem
excessive at first until you do all the sums. This is another reason why really professional companies tend to avoid markets with lots of men in sheds
supplying. It is impossible to compete.
As for your man who is making the reverse/overdrive unit, good luck and don't let this obsession with price, drive you into compromising the
quality of your product. A few pounds extra on a price will, of course, make people think twice. A reputation for noisy, leaky, unreliable units will
mean they don't even consider buying in the first place.
Mike,
Most of the techie stuff in this thread is lost on me. However, I do understand business basics and commercial realities.
My observations would be as follows: Whilst agreeing with the fundamental tenets of your post, I have two major misgivings, (a euphemism for 'I
think you're wrong'. Firstly I don't think there's an 'obsession with price.' Certainly,not from Nev's
perspective; rather, given his circumstances, his main concern would appear to be value for money. Secondly, that being so, it's axiomatic that
the quality of his product would be paramount. Reading his posts, does he really strike you as the type to compromise quality by producing 'a
noisy, leaky, unreliable unit?'
Just my two pen'orth.
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Nick DV
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| posted on 22/11/11 at 09:23 AM |
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Bob,
You put it in a much nicer way than I did!
Cheers, Nick
"The force will be with you, always!"
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MikeCapon
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| posted on 22/11/11 at 09:49 AM |
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by MikeCapon
The subject of manufacturers making 'huge' profits often comes up on here and it surprises me that certain, apparently very clever people,
fail to understand why companies have to make a reasonable margin on the goods they manufacture.
The man in the shed making bits as a hobby sees no other costs other than the bits he is bolting together. A company however has a heap of other bills
to pay. Rent, rates, taxes, salaries, insurance, marketing, tools/equipment, electricity, telephone, bank charges... The list goes on and on.
The fact is that in small scale manufacturing a gross margin of less than 50% is likely to be insufficient to stay in business. That may seem
excessive at first until you do all the sums. This is another reason why really professional companies tend to avoid markets with lots of men in sheds
supplying. It is impossible to compete.
As for your man who is making the reverse/overdrive unit, good luck and don't let this obsession with price, drive you into compromising the
quality of your product. A few pounds extra on a price will, of course, make people think twice. A reputation for noisy, leaky, unreliable units will
mean they don't even consider buying in the first place.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mike,
I sort of understand why you would be saying this, though I do not agree with a lot of it.
I have already said that I would not 'knock' anyone's product, but I do not believe that the bloke in the States, and definitely not
Nev, would let price compromise quality - or safety!
I would also point out your comment that "a reputation for noisy, leaky, unreliable units will mean they don't even consider buying in the
first place" - does that not apply to the Quaiffe reverse box, yet so many people buy them?
Cheers, Nick
Mike,
Most of the techie stuff in this thread is lost on me. However, I do understand business basics and commercial realities.
My observations would be as follows: Whilst agreeing with the fundamental tenets of your post, I have two major misgivings, (a euphemism for 'I
think you're wrong'. Firstly I don't think there's an 'obsession with price.' Certainly,not from Nev's
perspective; rather, given his circumstances, his main concern would appear to be value for money. Secondly, that being so, it's axiomatic that
the quality of his product would be paramount. Reading his posts, does he really strike you as the type to compromise quality by producing 'a
noisy, leaky, unreliable unit?'
Just my two pen'orth.
Okay guys,
I think you have misunderstood my intentions a little. I was simply trying to get over the following points:
1 Why, when the bits cost £400, a selling price of £1000 is not unreasonable if you are running a company.
2 That given the negative response to his proposed pricing, the guy in the States may get the impression that he needs to drive down his price at all
cost...
Adding to that.
Knowing Nev I know that he would not compromise on quality.
There is an obsession with price. Value for money is simply the ration between price and quality. Price seems to me to be the factor being
discussed
And yes, people did buy the Quaife box. But why? It was the first commercially available product on the market and it has taken time for it's
reputation to develop. I suspect that the sales of this product are not what they were. Given that Mike Quaife is an old friend of mine I find that a
shame.
Whatever, anyone who is proposing to make a quality product at a reasonable price to fill a void in the BEC market needs to be encouraged in a
positive manner and not confused by spurious arguments.
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Nick DV
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| posted on 22/11/11 at 11:58 AM |
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quote:
I think you have misunderstood my intentions a little. I was simply trying to get over the following points:
1 Why, when the bits cost £400, a selling price of £1000 is not unreasonable if you are running a company.
2 That given the negative response to his proposed pricing, the guy in the States may get the impression that he needs to drive down his price at all
cost...
Adding to that.
Knowing Nev I know that he would not compromise on quality.
There is an obsession with price. Value for money is simply the ration between price and quality. Price seems to me to be the factor being
discussed
And yes, people did buy the Quaife box. But why? It was the first commercially available product on the market and it has taken time for it's
reputation to develop. I suspect that the sales of this product are not what they were. Given that Mike Quaife is an old friend of mine I find that a
shame.
Whatever, anyone who is proposing to make a quality product at a reasonable price to fill a void in the BEC market needs to be encouraged in a
positive manner and not confused by spurious arguments.
Hi Mike,
Again, I understand what you are saying, but again I cannot completely agree.
1) I do think that things are overpriced, (I have already said this about safety equip etc), even if you are a big company. I am sorry the man at
Quaife is your mate, but I stand by my statement.
2) The man in the States. I am not knocking his product, I know nothing about it, but being half intelligent, and given that he even admits it could
come down in price, I stand by what I first said.
3) I agree good products at reasonable prices should be encouraged, but I am not getting involved in spurious arguments, I am simply giving my
opinion, which is fact based. I get annoyed at those that make negative and sometimes offensive comments with no balls or knowledge to back them up -
note, I am NOT referring to you - to those that know what they are talking about and DO have the balls and knowledge to put their money where their
mouth is!!
That's my tuppence worth, but where would we be without healthy debate?
Cheers, Nick
"The force will be with you, always!"
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 22/11/11 at 12:01 PM |
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The only bit I can add to this, is that the costs of components I was quoted, went down by 40%~60% if I ordered in batches of 100. Basically, 2 for 1
if you buy a 100. Still a very large outlay for what I percieve as a very small world market. I have doubts that there would be sales of anywhere near
100 units/year, and to have the biggest part of £20k sitting in a corner is absolute madness, not to mention impossible while I have sons to support
in long term studies.
As has been observed, I'm not in this for big profits, but I need to recover setup costs, which are relatively small as I am blessed with manual
skills, so at the price threshhold I've put, for 10 units I'll end up even. The subsequent units would make me profit, and if demand rose,
price would as well to the point where production and output were balanced until the market was saturated, at which point sales would drop off. This
could be a year, two, maybe three, but I see nor more than that. Then Sales would be a trickle, and as I've put, probably very small yearly.
The setup costs for 100 cases are substantial, as the foundry wants to switch to metal moulds(dies) and gravity die casting methods, instead of sand
casting in traditional ways. For 100 units, this is economical, and the dies are good for a lot more.
The machining setup costs are the same for 10 as 100, this goes for the gears, shafts,and cases. But, once the machine routines are on disc, the next
10 or 100 are already most of the way there.
Re Quaiffe and the others making reverse boxes, firstly, the first seller sets the price which the others follow. This first price is based on
motorsport pricing, my opinions on same have been voiced far too may times already.
If a market is small, you either go into it at fair pricing and expect a long payback period, or not at all. If you have the first and unique product,
you charge what you want until a cheaper and better version comes along. Then you drop your price, or your product.
Anyway, none of this is going to come together for 5~6 months. I could win the lottery in the interim, I might buy a good rain jacket first, and wear
it constantly, to ward off the exhaust of the pigs passing overhead.
The business profit ethic in England was explained to me by a very wise and educated old gentleman many years ago, and it goes back to the days of
sailing ships and trading in the empire. A man in The City would charter a ship, and send a full cargo of English manufactured goods outbound, on
which he expected to double his money at offload. The ship then brought a return cargo, purchased with the doubled money, which was expected to bring
at least twice the purchase price here in London. all of this in a twelve month. You do the sums. This ethic still drives the City traders, whom I
despise, today. They mightn't get close to old time profits, but give it a good try. Shylock was a generous man, compared to todays cretins who
run banks, pension funds, venture capital, and the like. I mix with these people in my sport of sailing, and I would not call any of them worthy of
being friends. Maybe I should be living a simple life camping in the bush, living off the land. If life were that simple......
Cheers,
Nev.
[Edited on 22/11/11 by Neville Jones]
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yahshuatwo
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| posted on 22/11/11 at 01:49 PM |
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Got the small order of shift lever mounts done., and yes I'm using the typical shifter o-ring.
[img]http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6557&p=131362#p131362[/img]
[Edited on 22/11/11 by yahshuatwo]
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MikeFellows
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| posted on 22/11/11 at 02:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by yahshuatwo
Got the small order of shift lever mounts done., and yes I'm using the typical shifter o-ring.
[img]http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6557&p=131362#p131362[/img]
[Edited on 22/11/11 by yahshuatwo]
your pic doesnt work, doesnt look like you can link to the pics in the forum
[Edited on 22/11/11 by MikeFellows]
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bobinspain
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| posted on 22/11/11 at 03:44 PM |
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Mike,
Speaking of not being able to access things, I was trying to access your build archive and I got a multitude of huge exclamation marks where the
photos should be. Am I doing something wrong? My LHD Busa Indy-R is ready to have a session at Daytuner.
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 22/11/11 at 03:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeCapon
:
1 Why, when the bits cost £400, a selling price of £1000 is not unreasonable if you are running a company.
Depends how much assembly time and overheads are, the market that you are selling to and what your aspired market position is. It doesn't have
to be cheap, just realistic otherwise the market base shrinks.
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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yahshuatwo
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| posted on 22/11/11 at 04:29 PM |
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How do you post pics?
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 22/11/11 at 05:33 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeCapon
Okay guys,
I think you have misunderstood my intentions a little. I was simply trying to get over the following points:
1 Why, when the bits cost £400, a selling price of £1000 is not unreasonable if you are running a company.
2 That given the negative response to his proposed pricing, the guy in the States may get the impression that he needs to drive down his price at all
cost...
That bit emphasised above is where you are all getting things out of context.
The bits are NOT costing £400, far from it as I've put earlier, and that's for a batch of 10. I make a profit at £400, to cover setup
costs and labour. For 100 the costs near enough halve.
Cheers,
nev.
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yahshuatwo
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| posted on 22/11/11 at 07:10 PM |
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quote:
Te That bit emphasised above is where you are all getting things out of context.
The bits are NOT costing £400, far from it as I've put earlier, and that's for a batch of 10. I make a profit at £400, to cover setup
costs and labour. For 100 the costs near enough halve.
Cheers, nev.
Question to all: what does Quaife's, Nev's or anyone elses product or pricing got to do with my Rbox from the USA?
First of all, Nev came on with negativity, stating MY design would fail because I'm using CF. Secondly, Nev wants to highjack MY thread to
discuss HIS product/pricing. Nev - start your own thread and then you can talk about YOUR design, and BASH MINE if you like
Your mate Ryan
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yahshuatwo
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| posted on 22/11/11 at 09:41 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeFellows
quote:
Originally posted by yahshuatwo
Got the small order of shift lever mounts done., and yes I'm using the typical shifter o-ring.
[img]http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6557&p=131362#p131362[/img]
[Edited on 22/11/11 by yahshuatwo]
your pic doesnt work, doesnt look like you can link to the pics in the forum
[Edited on 22/11/11 by MikeFellows]
Mike,
I just uploaded a few pics to my photo archive. You can see my reverse-only prototype beside the old FR2000 box and parts for the new Rbox (reverse +
O.D.) design. If you look up "Yahshuatwo" on utube you will find vids of my car and me testing the prototype box. Also, I have a vid of
visiting my local "shed" foundry..
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yahshuatwo
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| posted on 10/1/12 at 05:17 PM |
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I'v been working on the carbon fiber cover for the RBOX + overdrive unit and was able get one half-way done. Thus far, I've layed up
three layers and kevlar-hybrid and three of 2x2 twill 5.3oz black CF. I'll add another kevlar and CF layer as a "finish" to bring
the thickness around 3mm. Then trim down the length, add oil fill/drain plug and mount engagment lever
I see that www.Beltingonline.com abroad in the UK has a nice selection of metric pre-cut gears!! I need many 17 teeth 2.5 MOD pinion gears to give me
the right overdrive ratio (34/16 * 17/29 ~ 1:1.25) for the RBox.
[Edited on 10/1/12 by yahshuatwo]
[Edited on 10/1/12 by yahshuatwo]
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 11/1/12 at 11:42 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by yahshuatwo
I need many 17 teeth 2.5 MOD pinion gears to give me the right overdrive ratio (34/16 * 17/29 ~ 1:1.25) for the RBox.
I'll try and be nice, so don't get upset unnecessarily.
Fella, you need to get some books on gear design, and study them, then try and understand what you are doing. 2.5module gears are meant for small
industrial useage, and would end up as a bunch of filings in the bottom of any gearcase which is having bike power put through it. Remember, the
engine torque is multiplied by the gearbox, before it gets to the OD/Rev box. This thing isn't a toy, and will have to handle a good deal of
torque, and more than occasional shock load from having a heavy clutch dumped on it at a good amount of revs.
You might find something similar to 2.5 module in the gearcase of a wiper motor, by way of example.
The cf, well, I won't comment further.
What you've made so far in ali is very pretty, but I think you may have to brush up on your engineering a little. Pretty isn't necessarily
the correct design or strength.
I'm only trying to be helpful. I won't be making pretty, it's not seen. Function is paramount, and mine will be going in a racecar.
Cheers,
Nev.
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