owelly
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| posted on 19/3/14 at 06:58 PM |
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Big ends? Place your bets now....
I bought a 2005 Espace with a knackered turbo (as mentioned in a previous post!) and have got a replacement turbo fitted and things were looking good.
Apart from a bit of a knocking from the engine. I just put it down to being a diesel. SWMBO took it to work today and when she returned, the knocking
if definately worse!
When I first collected the car, there was no oil in the sump so what's ther chances the previous owner either ran it low which is what caused
the turbo to fail, or kept running the car with a knackered turbo which is why the exhaust was full of oil!
So, £40 buys a set of big end shells. Place your bets as to if they can be changed with the engine in the car and if they'll fix it?!!
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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Nickp
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| posted on 19/3/14 at 07:09 PM |
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Think you're going to have to get oily(er) to find out mate. I wouldn't waste the £40 until you've had a proper look at the crank.
I'm thinking if it's loud enough to be heard over the usual diesel knock then it must be pretty bad, hope I'm wrong. Sounds like the
knackered turbo probably emptied the sump.
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Nickp
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| posted on 19/3/14 at 07:13 PM |
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Even if the big ends do 'fix' it I'd still say it'll still be time to sell TBH.
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CRAIGR
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| posted on 19/3/14 at 07:13 PM |
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Probably ran on its own oil emptying the sump and filling the exhaust 
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 19/3/14 at 07:17 PM |
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Yeah pretty common for diesels to drink their own oil through leaky turbo seals. I'd be worried about little ends, top end and thrust too but
you could be ok..
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steve m
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| posted on 19/3/14 at 07:26 PM |
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If you were to stick a gallon of cheapy oil in the sump, do you think it would last long enough to trade it in ?
as that's what I would do
Thats was probably spelt wrong, or had some grammer, that the "grammer police have to have a moan at
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 19/3/14 at 07:33 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by steve m
If you were to stick a gallon of cheapy oil in the sump, do you think it would last long enough to trade it in ?
as that's what I would do
Noted for your next "for sale" thread 
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 19/3/14 at 07:34 PM |
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I disagree with that on principle, deception is never cool.
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perksy
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| posted on 19/3/14 at 08:27 PM |
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If its run shy of oil for a while and it is the big ends, the chances on getting away with it by just changing them is slim imho.
You'll need to mic the journals up on the crank and check for ovality and also scoring.
I'd drop the big end cap on the cylinder furthest away from the oil pump and check that first.
Is it knocking on acceleration ? Also put the handbrake on, select 4th gear, give it some revs and slip the clutch, See what the noise does then
?
A stethoscope can be your friend in situations like this and mine has been a real aid over the years.
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owelly
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| posted on 19/3/14 at 10:14 PM |
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It seems more noisy when you blip the throttle. Fairly quiet under load and on tickover.
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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Nickp
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| posted on 20/3/14 at 05:14 AM |
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When my old Rangers big ends went it was first noticeable on the over-run. On the motorway as you backed off the throttle you could hear it. But, been
a company vehicle with 200K on it I just kept driving it until it broke properly!! And my God did it get louder very very quickly!! Luckily a brand
new Mitsubishi Barbarian turned up shortly after to replace it
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doobrychat
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| posted on 20/3/14 at 07:29 AM |
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Hmmm.. you can change them with the engine in.. sump bolts are a bit of a fooker on them with there tiny reverse torque bolts can easily go round but
once the sumps off and the baffle is out then there is loads of room and if it wasn't for the jets then you could pull the pistons out the
bottom..
i rebuilt my F9Q 2 years ago with after market shells and had a look the other week and they are wearing fast than i would hope so i would advise
putting genuine ones in on the assumption the crank is worthy.
good luck..
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owelly
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| posted on 20/3/14 at 09:13 AM |
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Genuine Renault shells are £40 for the big ends. Once I get in there, I'll know if the little ends and mains have gone too!
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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owelly
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| posted on 20/3/14 at 09:50 AM |
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Slight change of plan:
SWMBO has decided to go to work in the Espace..... And as I've found a number of replacement engines for not too much money, I'll just
throw another engine at it. It'll probably be the quickest way and work out about the same price, plus I'll have a spare F9Q engine to
play with. I wonder how much power I can get out of it once it has had avrefresh...?
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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britishtrident
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| posted on 20/3/14 at 04:23 PM |
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These Renault engines are not known for longevity, the problem is due oil sludge choking the oil ways.
The problem was due to combination of inadequate oil specifaction and extended oil change intervals.
Mineral oils breakdown into black sludge and varnish when exposed to the high temperatures that are found in turbochargers.
Synthetic oils don't have this problem they were developed especially for gas turbine engines.
Around the time your car was built Renault extended the oil change interval but still specified semisynthetic oil.
Even if the specified oil change interval has been abided by and semi-synthetic oil has been used these engines usually suffer problems around 70,000
miles.
Usually it starts with the egr gumming up, this gets replaced and about 10,000 miles later the turbo fails due oil starvation often taking the whole
engine with it as shrapnel exits via the inlet manifold into the cylinders..
If the turbo failure is caught before damaging the engine then the oil feed pipe to the turbo should be replaced asv a mater of course.
The oil system on your existing engine is probably completely blocked, any replacement sourced from the scrappiest is likely to be almost as bad.
These engines are usually fine if full synthetic oil has been new and the oil has been changed before the specified oil change interval, but the
chances of finding one like that in the scrappies is close to zero.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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Nickp
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| posted on 20/3/14 at 04:50 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
These Renault engines are not known for longevity, the problem is due oil sludge choking the oil ways.
The problem was due to combination of inadequate oil specifaction and extended oil change intervals.
Mineral oils breakdown into black sludge and varnish when exposed to the high temperatures that are found in turbochargers.
Synthetic oils don't have this problem they were developed especially for gas turbine engines.
Around the time your car was built Renault extended the oil change interval but still specified semisynthetic oil.
Even if the specified oil change interval has been abided by and semi-synthetic oil has been used these engines usually suffer problems around 70,000
miles.
Usually it starts with the egr gumming up, this gets replaced and about 10,000 miles later the turbo fails due oil starvation often taking the whole
engine with it as shrapnel exits via the inlet manifold into the cylinders..
If the turbo failure is caught before damaging the engine then the oil feed pipe to the turbo should be replaced asv a mater of course.
The oil system on your existing engine is probably completely blocked, any replacement sourced from the scrappiest is likely to be almost as bad.
These engines are usually fine if full synthetic oil has been new and the oil has been changed before the specified oil change interval, but the
chances of finding one like that in the scrappies is close to zero.
Sounds like it's best to go for the one with the cleanest internals (whip the top off for a looksie) for the least beer tokens. Then give it a
good flush out with either flushing oil or some other amazing product
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owelly
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| posted on 20/3/14 at 08:23 PM |
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I may just tug the engine out and split it open and see what falls out. I have a 25,000 miles unit and a 70,000 miles unit just up the road for £550
and £350 respectively. I also have a choice for around £250-£300 but it means paying £50 delivery or spending a day driving about (although a couple
are not too far from Blyton...).
What is worrying me at the moment is the engine code numbers. The F9Q engine has been fitted to tons of models but they also have another three
numbers.... F9Q 750, F9Q 800, F9Q 890, etc. No-one seems to be able to tell me what the difference is aprt from "all the core units are the
same". This can't be quite true as the part numbers for the 5 and 6 speed (equipped) differ. The 6 speeders seem to have a larger
bellhousing.
So I may be better-off rebuilding my old unit as, like BT says, another second hand unit may be on borrowed time too.
ETA: the oil feed to the turbo was spotless. As was the oil return pipe. The oil filter was also remarkably clean inside.
[Edited on 20/3/14 by owelly]
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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Nickp
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| posted on 20/3/14 at 09:01 PM |
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If it looked spotless then it may be worth a £40 set of shells, you never know
Give it a flush, then cheap oil for 500mls. If it's still quiet then give it some posh full synthetic.
If you do go for a new one then I'd personally pay £200 more for a 25K unit (if it has the right numbers) and then look after it with nice oil
[Edited on 20/3/14 by Nickp]
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owelly
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| posted on 18/4/14 at 09:31 PM |
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Just to update......
I decided to buy a £350 70,000 mile engine out of a 130hp Megane from just up the road.
Getting the old engine out took forever! So many fiddley bit to get to the engine! Thankfully, my new huge trailer with it's magic floppy ramps
made my life a lot easier! I drove the Espace onto the trailer with the front wheels on the ramps. Once the car was supported under the jacking
points, I dropped the ramps down which left good access under the front of the car and it was easy to whip the wheels off and split the ball joints to
get the driveshafts out.
Anyhoo. My old engine was a F9Q 680 and the newer one a F9Q 804. The core unit was basically the same with just a couple of diferences to the
crankcase breather system but it was still OK to go in the Espace. The Crank and cam pulleys were a different size but by swapping the HP cambelt
driven fuel pumps pulley and pump and mixing the bracketry, it was all do-able. Mr Angrygrinder had to come to play to take a bit of meat off and
engine mount where the larger cam pulley was fouling. Tensioning the cambelt to 90Hz was a new one on me so I adjusted it so it felt right and then
used a 90Hz test tone to tweak the belt until it sounded right.
The car fired first pokke of the button but developed a bit of a rattle from the cam cover. It was possible to pull the cam cover back far enough to
see the fuel pump pulley almost off the tapered shaft with the cam belt hanging-on by 8mm....
I was sure I'd tightened the pulley but perhaps not! I soon tightened it up but as I was doing so, there was a bit of a cracking sound and the
bolt tightened a bit more. Then it nipped-upp OK. I'm not sure wtf happened there but it seems to be running OK now and I've been driving
about in it today. There does seem to be a bit of a rubbing noise coming from the cambelt so it may be catching on the plastic cam belt cover due to
the mix'n'match pulleys. I'll have a looksy tomorrow.
And now I'll pull the old engine to bits ready for a rebuild.
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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Nickp
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| posted on 19/4/14 at 05:26 AM |
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Well done, and I'm glad to hear the art of bodging is still alive
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owelly
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| posted on 20/4/14 at 08:02 PM |
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Bloody Espace is still fighting me!! It's parked outside my workmates house as we're on nightshift. His wife has just phoned to say the
hazard lights have just switched themselves on.... I doubt the battery will last another 12 hours.
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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prawnabie
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| posted on 20/4/14 at 08:38 PM |
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That will be the hazard switch! Clios, espace, traffic and master's all use the same switch but with a different button on them - very common.
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Scuzzle
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| posted on 20/4/14 at 08:43 PM |
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I did 10 years as parts manager for a Renault dealership, used to infuriate them that I refused to drive a Renault and went for Toyota's
instead. I thought they had a bit of a cheek telling me what car to get since they refused to give me company car.
I hope it's not an automatic Espace as if it is that's going to cost you one day soon. If it were me I'd get rid of it,
there's a reason why you never see any around these days even though a car that's a fibre glass body over a galvanised steel chassis
sounds like it should be a vehicle that lasts.
[Edited on 20/4/14 by Scuzzle]
[Edited on 20/4/14 by Scuzzle]
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owelly
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| posted on 20/4/14 at 10:30 PM |
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Google would also suggest the switch so that'll be the first thing to look at. I'll give the car a few more miles before I decide to move
it on as it suits our needs. So would an Alhambra/Galaxy/Sharan.....
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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morcus
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| posted on 20/4/14 at 11:41 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Scuzzle
I did 10 years as parts manager for a Renault dealership, used to infuriate them that I refused to drive a Renault and went for Toyota's
instead. I thought they had a bit of a cheek telling me what car to get since they refused to give me company car.
I hope it's not an automatic Espace as if it is that's going to cost you one day soon. If it were me I'd get rid of it,
there's a reason why you never see any around these days even though a car that's a fibre glass body over a galvanised steel chassis
sounds like it should be a vehicle that lasts.
[Edited on 20/4/14 by Scuzzle]
[Edited on 20/4/14 by Scuzzle]
Slightly off topic but it seems a bit rich to tell you to drive a Renault and not give you one. I'd not buy a car from a main dealer who drove
something they didn't sell, and I guess that's why all the garages my cousin has been a salesman for have loaned him cars.
In a White Room, With Black Curtains, By the Station.
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