Gremlin
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| posted on 3/6/08 at 10:11 AM |
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Something Covered MANY times im sure...
A few years ago I started building a R1 BEC but due to divorce lost the garage and had to sell the project on. I’m now back in the situation where I
can start again and want to get back up to speed with what are the latest options etc.
I want to build a small and light car as possible without making the chassis any bigger than I can get away with and as few alterations from standard
like raised bonnets as possible but I am also looking for a very quick car. Obviously most engine options are quick but something that will keep me
buzzing for years and scare the misses half to death!
Basically nice and quick and minimalistic car....
It was this reason I originally chose the BEC route but I have been looking on the forum for a few weeks now and came across a chart somewhere that
stated a 2lt zetec (possibly on the WxxxFxxxD site) 0-60 is actually slightly quick than a BEC.
Can people tell me if that would be right? I assumed that due to weight and power bands a BEC would be more OTT hence ideal for me 
Originally I looked at Zetec 2lt, the Vx XE 2lt and the R1 and Fireblade engines.
Out of the car engines I know more about the Vx but fewer people at the time had used them so the Zetec was the engine to pick for support and out the
two bike engines the fireblade was the tried and tested but the R1 just happened to be the one I came across first...
Any help would be appreciated... any other engine options?
Obviously carrying on from this transmission options to match up with...
I would love to fit a VX C20LET red top but im not sure it will fit. Any ideas????
Thanks in advance....
[Edited on 3/6/08 by Gremlin]
[Edited on 3/6/08 by Gremlin]
EZy GreMLiN
"The only way to get rid of temptation is too give in to it..!"
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coozer
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| posted on 3/6/08 at 10:15 AM |
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5 metres square if you've got the room. Minimum car length + 1 metre SQ IMO
[Edited on 3/6/08 by coozer]
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
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Gremlin
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| posted on 3/6/08 at 10:29 AM |
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Coozer, thanks for that but I think you are replying to my other post in a different section about garage size...
I'm asking about engine and transmission options on this one! 
EZy GreMLiN
"The only way to get rid of temptation is too give in to it..!"
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matt_claydon
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| posted on 3/6/08 at 10:39 AM |
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I'm a CEC fan personally but happy to admit there's no way a standard Zetec CEC would beat a BEC to 60! Possibly a very heavily modified
one could beat a smaller bike engine.
[Edited on 3/6/08 by matt_claydon]
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Gremlin
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| posted on 3/6/08 at 10:52 AM |
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So BEC would be MUCH quicker?
The options I have looked at before are
CEC:
Zetec 2lt
Vx XE red Top 2lt
Vx C20LET(If it would fit but don’t want massive engine bulges so may not)
BEC :
Fireblade
R1
Any other BE that would work well but be within similar price ranges to R1 and have plenty of support out there for when I get stuck?
Looking for a toy something fun, not really a touring motor more a road going track car...
EZy GreMLiN
"The only way to get rid of temptation is too give in to it..!"
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Gergely
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| posted on 3/6/08 at 10:59 AM |
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If you are looking for a "quick, minimalistic car" to scare people, I would suggest BEC.
True they have disadvantages, but if you want racecar like performance and soundtrack, potentially with a paddleshifter, then BEC is best. If you want
creature comforts (screens, hood, doors, etc) as well, go for CEC.
Based on what you have written I would go the tried and tested R1 route. Good power, relatively cheap and simple to install - so they say...
It will not be MUCH quicker than a good CEC, but being lighter, it will probably be better around corners than your typical CEC.
My2p.
Gergely
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BenB
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| posted on 3/6/08 at 11:01 AM |
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Define quicker 
A CEC doing 60mph is just as fast as a BEC doing 60mph
BECs typically have better power:weight ratios so will accelerate quicker and will be rather more excilerating in the process (partially just due to a
12-14k redline!!)
CECs typically have more BHP (though it depends on your engine choice) so will push through the air better so the top end speed will be better (though
the brick-like aerodynamics of a Se7en mean that you're ultimately pi$$ing in the wind).
It depends what you want the car for.... For long journeys having a screamer isn't the nicest option, and for day-to-day use having reverse is
useful and a normal clutch is good for traffic....
Horses for courses....
But if you are going for a CEC make sure the engine is powerful as well as heavy
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nick205
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| posted on 3/6/08 at 11:03 AM |
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Have you considered a Pinto?
I think you know yourself that BEC is the way to go for the all out thrill your after. Then again if you're planning longer journeys with the
(new?) missus then CEC might prove more comfortable.
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Gremlin
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| posted on 3/6/08 at 11:21 AM |
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I have looked at the pinto b4 but they are quite high and think i would prefer to look at the newer Zetec or C20XE. I like the C20LET but think with
the turbo etc would be better off sticking to the C20XE and modifying that once the car is up and running.
If I had the choice of R1, Zetec and C20XE which would people go for?
I'm limited on other CE to try other than the 4age but at 1.6 it needs a fair amount of modifying to get the power up although it is light and
high revving.
Hummm I find myself at this point again where I dont know whats best for power/cost/reliability.....
ARGHH...
[Edited on 3/6/08 by Gremlin]
[Edited on 3/6/08 by Gremlin]
EZy GreMLiN
"The only way to get rid of temptation is too give in to it..!"
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smart51
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| posted on 3/6/08 at 11:37 AM |
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A friend of mine has a race prepared 1.7 crossflow that makes the same 150 BHP as my R1 on the same rolling road. With only a small weight penalty
the car will be almost as quick.
That said, my 98 carbed R1 is the least powerful R1 setup and his crossflow needs to be retuned regularly to keep it running sweet at all engine
speeds.
You can make a car engined car faster than a BEC quite easily. Yon need to empty your wallet a lot more though.
for BHP / kg / £ a simple BEC like a 1000cc blade or an R1 is hard to beat. There are rumours that a reverse gear will be a requirement for IVA
from about March next year, so consider that a BEC will become a little less cheap really quite soon.
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Gremlin
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| posted on 3/6/08 at 11:46 AM |
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Think im leaning towards a R1 for BEC and C20XE for a CEC.... Think out the box the BEC will be faster but the C20XE is more modifiable and ultimately
possibly faster... (Would that be right?)
Which would be the easiest route to take? Is the C20XE a reasonable choice for CEC or is a zetec better?
Need to keep cost down but want a quick car.. Would a CEC ever be as quick as a BEC 0-60 for reasonable money?
[Edited on 3/6/08 by Gremlin]
EZy GreMLiN
"The only way to get rid of temptation is too give in to it..!"
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Hellfire
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| posted on 3/6/08 at 11:50 AM |
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If I were building a BEC now, the bike engines top of my list would be ZX10R and GSXR
Phil
Or latest Blade, or R1, or ZZR1400 or Busa.......
[Edited on 3-6-08 by Hellfire]
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Gremlin
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| posted on 3/6/08 at 11:53 AM |
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Nice, that throws the cat amongst the pigeons...! AGH
Why choose ZX10R and GSXR over R1? Is there plenty of support out there for these engines as I have much less knowledge of bikes and bike engines than
vauxhall and ford engines..
Are they ore expensive?
EZy GreMLiN
"The only way to get rid of temptation is too give in to it..!"
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Hellfire
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| posted on 3/6/08 at 12:01 PM |
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To be honest, there's not a great deal of difference between any of the 1,000cc bike engines around at the moment, in terms of performance.
There's a great choice at present and none will disappoint. Most have been fitted in a BEC application and there's a great deal of
knowledge on here to help you, should you get stuck.
In fact I've just changed my mind again, I'd go for a ZZR1400. 
Phil
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Gremlin
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| posted on 3/6/08 at 12:08 PM |
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Did like the ZX12r when I started building my R1 but price stopped that...
Will a BEC always be MUCH faster than a CEC or can a CEC like a zetec or C20XE ever be as quick without spending loads and loads?
EZy GreMLiN
"The only way to get rid of temptation is too give in to it..!"
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Gremlin
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| posted on 3/6/08 at 12:10 PM |
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ZZR1400 = ££££££KKKK just checked...
Needs to be cheap but Quick so very much BHP per ££ im looking for...
EZy GreMLiN
"The only way to get rid of temptation is too give in to it..!"
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eznfrank
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| posted on 3/6/08 at 12:20 PM |
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I vote BEC.
What exactly are you looking for?? Overall top speed or acceleration?? With a BEC most should be around the 4 secs to 60 mark, a well tuned car engine
may eventually be able to top that, but by how much?? 1/2 a second, even a second at that range would be phenomenal but at what cost?
I'd go for a decent bike engine zx12 if you can stretch to it or why not stick to the r1, which you should at least be familiar with, IIRC the
new ones have in the region of 180bhp??
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Gremlin
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| posted on 3/6/08 at 12:26 PM |
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Cost is a problem at the moment...
Acceleration is the thing I'm looking for not top speed...
Hence the CEC option i was looking at could perhaps be modified when its up and running nad I have extra funds.
R1 I think seems to be the route... Any Ideas or 0-60 and car weight of a R1 car??
Only thing pushing me back towards CEC is they are easier to work on and cheaper to pickup bits over time...
Nice R1 though ....Hummm
Much to think about thanks..
ZX12 I think would be out of my price range but would be my first choice BEC wise I think....
DOH seem to be more confused now then ever!
[Edited on 3/6/08 by Gremlin]
EZy GreMLiN
"The only way to get rid of temptation is too give in to it..!"
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Gergely
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| posted on 3/6/08 at 03:40 PM |
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Another question is: How good a driver are you? I think most of us would not be quicker driving an R1 or a ZX12 engined car. An F1 driver possibly
would... but cost wouldn't be an issue for him...
Your problem is cost, but you want good acceleration. Go for an injected R1 with around 170 bhp, tried and tested, good price, around 4 sec.
acceleration. End of story...
Or go for any 1000cc engine that you can get at a good price from a reliable source.
I recommend Malc at Yorkshire Engines. He has nice, clean engines and lots of knowledge of them. Ask him as well...
But don't believe if you pick one engine, another 1000cc engined car will zip past you on the track because of the different engine...
You can't go wrong with any modern 1000cc really
Gergely
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Gremlin
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| posted on 3/6/08 at 04:00 PM |
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Thanks all I think it will be a 02-03 injection R1 engine...
EZy GreMLiN
"The only way to get rid of temptation is too give in to it..!"
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owelly
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| posted on 3/6/08 at 05:59 PM |
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Here's my tuppemnce worth....
My chum has a Blade powered Se7en. With just him in the car, he out accelerated my T5 Volvo. Until I overtook him as he had run out of puff at about
11omph. With two bods in his car, my Volvo left them for dead.
Perhaps if you don't scare the missus, you won't have another divorce?
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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Gremlin
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| posted on 3/6/08 at 06:06 PM |
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This is very true!
More thought needed then i think.....Humm
[Edited on 3/6/08 by Gremlin]
EZy GreMLiN
"The only way to get rid of temptation is too give in to it..!"
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Volvorsport
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| posted on 3/6/08 at 06:15 PM |
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mid engine with a certain volvo powerplant .
easily tuneable over and above what youll need in a lightweight midi .
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
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NS Dev
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| posted on 3/6/08 at 06:31 PM |
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To put some numbers in here, I have built a reliable, very quick CEC, using (internally standard) vauxhall XE power.
Weight = 540kg
Power = 204hp
Power to weight = 378hp/tonne
0-60 = 3.9 secs
Cost = £5500
Its minimal but very comfortable. Main ciritcism is buffeting without helmet on, screen improved it but its still bad.
There are not many bike engine cars built for £5500 that will be quicker than the above.
The debate really comes down to personal choice, as most engines have their pros and cons (like mine really needs a dry sump! )
To put the performance into perspective, regardless of paper figures, my car has recently proved MORE than competitive against a hayabusa engined
seven!!!
[Edited on 3/6/08 by NS Dev]
[Edited on 3/6/08 by NS Dev]
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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Gremlin
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| posted on 3/6/08 at 07:02 PM |
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I know much more about the C20XE than I do bike engines so would be nice and less performance loss when the misses gets in.
Plus the R1 I was leaning towards people have come up with issues....
BUT..... ARGHH
EZy GreMLiN
"The only way to get rid of temptation is too give in to it..!"
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