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Caliper flex
rodgling - 27/4/15 at 08:05 PM

After more investigation looking for the cause of my soft brake pedal, this is what I found (firm but not silly pedal pressure applied):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgiLzdwBbag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXxliocseS0

With the pedal released, the pads are perfectly square to the disc, so this does appear to be 100% caliper flex, about 0.4 mm each side. Callipers are Wilwood Powerlites.

Is this normal? Safe? I'm certainly not thrilled about the resulting soft pedal, perhaps an expensive and time-consuming step up to Alcon or AP is the way forward.


JAG - 27/4/15 at 08:13 PM

This is not unusual but it is very undesirable.

It's the one thing that's good about the Girling M16 - they're very stiff even if they're heavy!

What size pistons are in those calipers?

Do you know exactly how much the caliper deflects?

Do you know what line pressure you are using?

In a modern road car 2.0 - 2.5 cc at 100 bar is a good benchmark.


daniel mason - 27/4/15 at 08:16 PM

Powerlites will flex. Even the dynalite race caliper on the radical flexed a bit under load! The hi-spec race caliper replacements were much better.


JAG - 27/4/15 at 08:20 PM

Is it safe?

It kinda depends upon the Stress in the caliper housing and the number of Stress cycles that you will put the caliper through while the car is being used. It needs careful analysis and then a very good understanding of what we call the 'Duty Cycle'

If the fatigue life of your caliper is low enough, the Stresses are high, the caliper will fail while in use - if the stresses are low then it may well survive for the entire time you own the car or the entire life of the car.

It's something that big caliper manufacturers and vehicle manufacturers test for by cycling the caliper at the 1.0 to 1.5g hydraulic pressure and up to 1 million cycles.

There is no easy way to do this with Kitcars - you are at the whim of caliper manufacturers like Wilwood etc...


RichieW - 28/4/15 at 07:21 PM

That really is a bit of an eye opener. Something to remove from my wishlist.


adithorp - 28/4/15 at 07:41 PM

All a bit strange, given there's lots of cars with Wilwood Powerlights (mine included) that don't have spongy brakes. Not heard of any fatigue failures either and mine has had 7yrs' hard labour.

Could it be excessive hydraulic pressure caused by too much pedal leverage or too smaal master cyl' bore?

Hi-Specs however are well known for distorting, dragging and leaking. I know of 2 friend who've had issues on the road and there were multiple reports from RGB racers


britishtrident - 28/4/15 at 07:41 PM

As an experiment it might be interesting to put a large G clamp on each calliper and see how much the pedal travel is reduced.


rodgling - 28/4/15 at 09:34 PM

Don't think it's excessive pedal force or m/c size - it's a 0.625 (calliper bore is 35mm) and it takes very little force to feel the softness in the pedal. After a bit the pedal goes pretty solid when you apply roughly emergency-stop level braking effort. Maybe a larger m/c would help, or alternatively smaller calliper bore?

Yeah I also wondered about attaching a large G-clamp. Might give it a go if I can find a way to fit something.


britishtrident - 29/4/15 at 06:37 AM

The hydraulic line pressures will be expected a lot lower than a tintop and the symptom of the pedal eventually becoming solid under pressure would be more typical of a calliper alignment issue than excessive calliper flexing.

The other possibility is of course a seized piston or pad but if it is happening on both sides then this is less likely.


coyoteboy - 15/5/15 at 05:59 PM

I see flex like this on OEM calipers too, to some extent but not quite this much. That said I'd be surprised if they didn't flex like this as a light caliper. Are they multi-part? Are the joining fasteners up to torque?


motorcycle_mayhem - 15/5/15 at 07:54 PM

The flexing of Powerlites is well known in the paddock. I do not know of any fatigue failures, however, but if anybody else has I wouldn't be surprised. These are very cheap calipers, which seem to be quite adequate for use.

I watched the pair on my Westfield flex dramatically braking for the hairpin at Pembrey. I then went to 'Outlaw' calipers, which were stiffer, but more expensive (of course). Last pair I used on the car were metallic blue Brembo's, unsure of model, but they were incredibly stiff and light.... eye wateringly expensive though.

I used 1.38mm Powerlites by the way, with a 0.7" cylinder (Front).


cloudy - 15/5/15 at 08:27 PM

Are you using the wider powerlites for vented discs? If so I guess the wider bridge reduces it's stiffness


rodgling - 15/5/15 at 11:22 PM

Yes, 1.38" pistons over vented discs. Now experimenting with a bigger master cylinder to reduce pedal travel - hopefully this won't result in the inability to generate enough force to lock the brakes...

Ultimately the right answer would be some decent AP callipers I suppose but will keep trying to get a decent setup out of the powerlites first.


rodgling - 31/7/15 at 11:46 PM

Update: fitted a 0.875" master cylinder and also a pressure sensor.

Now the pedal feels superb, travel is not excessive at all and leg effort is about right, probably on the high side of what most people would want but on a track car it's exactly what I would want.

Maximum braking effort at Snetterton used about 710 psi (49 bar) of line pressure (this gave a peak of 1.5g so clearly around the limit). Wilwood test the callipers up to 1500 psi and their website reckons normal use is 900-1200 psi, so I am no longer worried by the flexing.