clairetoo
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| posted on 19/7/14 at 06:03 AM |
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Fuel cooler ?
I'm currently on holiday in the alps , and have been having problems with an over-heating fuel pump . After a few hours driving it just cuts out
without warning , and wont restart .
Pulling the return line at the fuel rail revealed no fuel , just high pressure vapour - every time its happened I have had to remove the return at the
tank sender , and bleed the system . I did remove the pump first time , and it was too hot to touch , so I am currently sitting on a campsite waiting
for a fuel pump to be delivered........
Which has got me thinking of some kind of cooler in the return line - I work on modern diesel vans all day , and they all have them .
The fuel is getting pumped to a hot engine bay (the fuel rails are near as hot as the engine !) picking up heat , the return into the tank is right
next to the pump so almost a direct return path , all of which will be building heat .
I'm thinking something like a small oil cooler in the return , after the regulator , right out in front of the rad - good idea or not ?
Its cuz I is blond , innit
Claire xx
Will weld for food......
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big_wasa
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| posted on 19/7/14 at 06:14 AM |
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Some manufactures have gone return less fuel pump. But I don't know of any after market ecu to control the driver module.
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cliftyhanger
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| posted on 19/7/14 at 07:06 AM |
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How about a zig-zag of copper pipe to act as a simple cooler? The mx5 has a pipe like that, I think (but not checked as nothing ever seems to go
wrong) that it is for power steering fluid? But a similar one for fuel should help, and be very simple.
Another point, the old Triumph PI systems are often modified by having a coil of the return pipe around the fuel pump to cool the pump. I am guessing
there the petrol tank will soak the heat up.
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matt_claydon
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| posted on 19/7/14 at 07:39 AM |
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Don't put it in front of the rad, you'll have fuel everywhere in a shunt - not good!
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madteg
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| posted on 19/7/14 at 08:02 AM |
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I think its a good idea, you could mount a small cooler near to the diff, like some jap cars do to cool the diff oil.
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mark chandler
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| posted on 19/7/14 at 08:08 AM |
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Heat is the enemy, however the ethanol content fuel creates a much lower boiling point use high octane as this tends to have a lower content of
ethanol.
France is particularly bad as they run 10% ethanol, in the UK you can look E5 = 5% E10 = 10% so go for '98 Sans Plomb' and try and work
out from the markings if you have a choice and go for the lowest ethanol content.
At an autosolo last year some mini's had this problem, the glass fuel bowl on the bulkhead was literally boiling fuel, the cars that suffered
had filled up on cheap supermarket fuel, I suspect your fuel pump is causing the fuel to boil so is then unable to cool itself.
HTH
Regards Mark
[Edited on 19/7/14 by mark chandler]
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 19/7/14 at 08:22 AM |
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Hi Mark
Good advice, and I didn't know that. I tend to run Shell Optimax, and when I'm feeling generous, Aldon Octane booster.
There fuel coolers available on JIC fittings, and the advice I was given was "see how you do before you fit one". It sounds like Claire
has hit that point.
quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
Heat is the enemy, however the ethanol content fuel creates a much lower boiling point use high octane as this tends to have a lower content of
ethanol.
France is particularly bad as they run 10% ethanol, in the UK you can look E5 = 5% E10 = 10% so go for '98 Sans Plomb' and try and work
out from the markings if you have a choice and go for the lowest ethanol content.
At an autosolo last year some mini's had this problem, the glass fuel bowl on the bulkhead was literally boiling fuel, the cars that suffered
had filled up on cheap supermarket fuel, I suspect your fuel pump is causing the fuel to boil so is then unable to cool itself.
HTH
Regards Mark
[Edited on 19/7/14 by mark chandler]
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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Andy S
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| posted on 19/7/14 at 08:28 AM |
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Could also be caused by the pump cavitating due to the line to the pump being too small / not having enough static head or a restriction in the supply
line like a pre filter.
If the fuel gets warm enough any draw/suction from the pump lowers the pressure and just instantly boils the fluid, this is also why many systems run
a slightly pressurised fuel tank.
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James
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| posted on 19/7/14 at 08:37 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by madteg
I think its a good idea, you could mount a small cooler near to the diff, like some jap cars do to cool the diff oil.
And the Mclaren SLR! 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
- Muhammad Ali
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Ivan
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| posted on 19/7/14 at 08:38 AM |
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Another simple solution that I learned in really hot climates and having gone through an expensive fuel pump is to keep your fuel tank as full as
possible by filling up whenever the opportunity presents itself - this makes for a bigger heat sink for the returned fuel giving it more time to cool
down before it is pumped back through the system and re-heated.
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40inches
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| posted on 19/7/14 at 09:48 AM |
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Copper coil heat exchangers are used in home brewing, or could you fit an in tank pump?
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 19/7/14 at 11:13 AM |
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I've never seen or know about a factory standard car having fuel overheating problems or needing a pump replacement unless high mileage.
So, assuming the car Claire is driving now is not standard the issue will be one of two things, poor quality pump or incorrectly installed.
Pump should be under the tank (head of fuel) with no pre filter, with large feed pipe (normally 12mm bore)
Most Efi pumps will not suck fuel, if a restriction is present on the inlet it will cause the pump to run hot. Also, running the pump in lockout
(return blocked) will cause it to run hot.
More than 30 seconds of running an Efi pump dry, or in lockout will damage it.
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ceebmoj
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| posted on 19/7/14 at 11:34 AM |
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Do you return the exes fuel to the tank or swirl pot? I have heard of this happening when the return is to the swirl pot. Does any one have a good
article on fuel system design?
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 19/7/14 at 11:57 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj
Do you return the exes fuel to the tank or swirl pot? I have heard of this happening when the return is to the swirl pot. Does any one have a good
article on fuel system design? [/quot
If you have seen this happening with a swirl pot then the system probably was on the brink of failure any way - the reason i say this is we have seen
a couple of cars on the dyno that started off with very quite pumps and after a few hours the pumps have got slightly noisy (not causing a problem,
but you could hear the pump) On investigation we have concluded the fuel system wasn't quite right and after minor alterations was corrected the
problem.
Any liquid is harder to pump when its hot, some worse than others, water is a bad one and i suspect so is petrol.
The liquid within a pump can get agitated, causing small bubbles to form, these bubbles hold the liquid away from the pump impellers making the pump
less efficient.
The noise you can hear from a pump is the noise made by the fuel / bubbles and the pump impellers hitting each other, the loss of efficiency reduces
the pumps ability to move the fuel and the cavitation gets worse.
As most pumps consume around 40watts of electrical power, and rely on the fuel flow for cooling, to add to that normally the 40watts of energy is used
to do the work of pumping - if the pumps efficiency is reduced by cavitation the energy goes to heat. This heats the fuel and the actual pump - making
it harder to pump - eventually the whole thing spirals out of control and the pump fails completely or just stopping working until its allowed to cool
down.
The issue maybe resolved by a fuel cooler, but your barking up the wrong tree, the real problem is poor system design or just a crap pump.
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ceebmoj
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| posted on 19/7/14 at 12:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj
Do you return the exes fuel to the tank or swirl pot? I have heard of this happening when the return is to the swirl pot. Does any one have a good
article on fuel system design?
If you have seen this happening with a swirl pot then the system probably was on the brink of failure any way - the reason i say this is we have seen
a couple of cars on the dyno that started off with very quite pumps and after a few hours the pumps have got slightly noisy (not causing a problem,
but you could hear the pump) On investigation we have concluded the fuel system wasn't quite right and after minor alterations was corrected the
problem.
Any liquid is harder to pump when its hot, some worse than others, water is a bad one and i suspect so is petrol.
The liquid within a pump can get agitated, causing small bubbles to form, these bubbles hold the liquid away from the pump impellers making the pump
less efficient.
The noise you can hear from a pump is the noise made by the fuel / bubbles and the pump impellers hitting each other, the loss of efficiency reduces
the pumps ability to move the fuel and the cavitation gets worse.
As most pumps consume around 40watts of electrical power, and rely on the fuel flow for cooling, to add to that normally the 40watts of energy is used
to do the work of pumping - if the pumps efficiency is reduced by cavitation the energy goes to heat. This heats the fuel and the actual pump - making
it harder to pump - eventually the whole thing spirals out of control and the pump fails completely or just stopping working until its allowed to cool
down.
The issue maybe resolved by a fuel cooler, but your barking up the wrong tree, the real problem is poor system design or just a crap pump.
Do you have an example of well designed system or a good reference article?
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 19/7/14 at 12:25 PM |
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No sorry I don't have any docs or written info.
We've designed several system but it all from experience.
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Ivan
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| posted on 19/7/14 at 03:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
I've never seen or know about a factory standard car having fuel overheating problems or needing a pump replacement unless high mileage.
So, assuming the car Claire is driving now is not standard the issue will be one of two things, poor quality pump or incorrectly installed.
Pump should be under the tank (head of fuel) with no pre filter, with large feed pipe (normally 12mm bore)
Most Efi pumps will not suck fuel, if a restriction is present on the inlet it will cause the pump to run hot. Also, running the pump in lockout
(return blocked) will cause it to run hot.
More than 30 seconds of running an Efi pump dry, or in lockout will damage it.
Although what you say re installation is correct this is a regular occurrence in South Africa - I know from experience with Volvo's - mine was a
T4 and happened outside Beaufort West - but other manufacturers also experienced it. The tow company immediately identified the problem and told me
that it was a common problem with European and Scandinavian cars and that, if I kept tank as full as possible, I would have no problems on my
remaining 2500km trip to Jo'burg and back to Cape - they were right. Volvo even carried half the cost of the pump as a tacit admission of a
problem although they denied it..
The initial answer is to stop until fuel cools -you have no choice as car won't run anyway and then to keep tank full. Of course the pump will
have to be replaced ASAP as problem just gets worse because pump has lost efficiency and heats the fuel up faster - the full tank thing is to get you
home or to the agents.
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clairetoo
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| posted on 19/7/14 at 04:48 PM |
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Some very interesting information there guys - it does fit my theory that heat buildup is an almost runaway thing , I cant see it being a poorly
designed system as its an Mx5 , only with a walbro pump (or should that be wallmart......) , running a V6 with a decent aftermarket adjustable fuel
pressure regulator .
I am currently wasting a few days of my holiday waiting for a second-hand stock pump to be delivered here as I've come to the conclusion that
the pump is now knackered......tried to go for a gentle drive today , starting with a full tank , and managed a whole 120 kilometers before it
quit.......still with over 3/4 of a tank .
Before it died , it had been running weak for a while , so probably lost fuel pressure , and the temp was in the low 30's .
I've run a similar setup in my Fury without problem , so the main culprit has to be a dodgy pump . It will be getting a cooler of some kind when
I get back - spraying hot fuel into the inlet flow cant be helping power.....
Its cuz I is blond , innit
Claire xx
Will weld for food......
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 19/7/14 at 09:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by clairetoo
Some very interesting information there guys - it does fit my theory that heat buildup is an almost runaway thing , I cant see it being a poorly
designed system as its an Mx5 , only with a walbro pump (or should that be wallmart......) , running a V6 with a decent aftermarket adjustable fuel
pressure regulator .
I am currently wasting a few days of my holiday waiting for a second-hand stock pump to be delivered here as I've come to the conclusion that
the pump is now knackered......tried to go for a gentle drive today , starting with a full tank , and managed a whole 120 kilometers before it
quit.......still with over 3/4 of a tank .
Before it died , it had been running weak for a while , so probably lost fuel pressure , and the temp was in the low 30's .
I've run a similar setup in my Fury without problem , so the main culprit has to be a dodgy pump . It will be getting a cooler of some kind when
I get back - spraying hot fuel into the inlet flow cant be helping power.....
It's nothing to do with fuel temp, if it is your car is an exceptional case?, which is unlikey.
The conversions you are doing are nothing clever, your car is not out if the ordinary, so why does it need an odd ball fuel system? The problem is
your installation is wrong or your pump is crap or most likely both.
There are millions of cars on the road with basic fuel systems that run fine, your not making big power per litre or running 9000rpm. Stop looking for
the complicated solution :-)
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clairetoo
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| posted on 20/7/14 at 08:17 AM |
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Jeez you sure a proper keyboard warrier Bailey.........if you ever fall off that high horse of yours you better have a parachute handy.......
I've already said its pretty much a stock Mx5 system , exept for a walbro pump (which I have already said I think is duff) and an adjustable FPR
.
Are you trying to tell me Mazda screwed up when they designed the stock system ? And that every manufacture of diesel vans is running an `oddball
system' because they dont know how to design a fuel system ?
You have been on my case ever since I said on here that I wasnt impressed with the mapping you did on a friends car - nothing has changed , it was
utter shite......basically a 2D map in a 3D system......all straight lines from zero revs to max revs........on both fuel and ignition .
I have never seen maps like them , this was a number of years ago , and I still havnt yet . I figure you had tuned for max power , and sod the rest as
long as it works...............
So , lets agree to disagree on all matters to do with tuning - and if you have nothing usefull to add , please stop spamming my threads .
Its cuz I is blond , innit
Claire xx
Will weld for food......
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 20/7/14 at 09:40 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by clairetoo
Jeez you sure a proper keyboard warrier Bailey.........if you ever fall off that high horse of yours you better have a parachute handy.......
I've already said its pretty much a stock Mx5 system , exept for a walbro pump (which I have already said I think is duff) and an adjustable FPR
.
Are you trying to tell me Mazda screwed up when they designed the stock system ? And that every manufacture of diesel vans is running an `oddball
system' because they dont know how to design a fuel system ?
You have been on my case ever since I said on here that I wasnt impressed with the mapping you did on a friends car - nothing has changed , it was
utter shite......basically a 2D map in a 3D system......all straight lines from zero revs to max revs........on both fuel and ignition .
I have never seen maps like them , this was a number of years ago , and I still havnt yet . I figure you had tuned for max power , and sod the rest as
long as it works...............
So , lets agree to disagree on all matters to do with tuning - and if you have nothing usefull to add , please stop spamming my threads .
Go and have a look on mx5nuts and see the number of mx5s we have mapped, most with standard fuel systems, the stock pump is fine to 250bhp.
If you have changed your pump and maybe raised the fuel pressure then its no longer a stock fuel system.
If the new pump has a lot more flow than the stock pump then that can cause a problem.
Nissan 200/300sx have a fuel pump controller (still with a return), skylines have a fuel pump resistor that is shorted out(via Ecu) when under
boost.
I guess the reason for this the pumps are sized to supply the fuel for full throttle / full boost and so are pumping hard for no reason at light
throttle.
Standard mx5s don't have any fuel heating issues - I know this as I have had them on the dyno all day with varying levels of fuel in the tank.
If heating was an issue it would have happened on the dyno as there is little air flow over fuel lines and the tank.
I think I have an old megatune backup of your mates car, If I can find it I will take a look at what i did, but as I said when you posted your
comments about bad mapping
if the customer is not happy I will refund or map again. I suggest it's more likely it you who has no idea what you looking at.
At the time your where out of order posting what you did without contacting me first - I probably lost some business do to it.
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davidimurray
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| posted on 20/7/14 at 09:42 AM |
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Any fuel filters that could be partially clogged?
Gallery 1 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.116893465324.130778.601005324
Gallery 2 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.245243755324.181913.601005324&l=a9831a9319
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Gallery 4 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.490098255324.297598.601005324&l=efb083b7df
Gallery 5 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150244028550325.366987.601005324&l=583fd5cd3a
Gallery 6 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150550640070325.430417.601005324&type=3&l=fe779b358c
Duratec Engine Swap https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152527759580325.1073741828.601005324&type=1&l=40aae5e72f " target="_blank"> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152527759580325.1073741828.601005324&type=1&l=40aae5e72f
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 20/7/14 at 09:50 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Ivan
Although what you say re installation is correct this is a regular occurrence in South Africa - I know from experience with Volvo's - mine was a
T4 and happened outside Beaufort West - but other manufacturers also experienced it. The tow company immediately identified the problem and told me
that it was a common problem with European and Scandinavian cars and that, if I kept tank as full as possible, I would have no problems on my
remaining 2500km trip to Jo'burg and back to Cape - they were right. Volvo even carried half the cost of the pump as a tacit admission of a
problem although they denied it..
The initial answer is to stop until fuel cools -you have no choice as car won't run anyway and then to keep tank full. Of course the pump will
have to be replaced ASAP as problem just gets worse because pump has lost efficiency and heats the fuel up faster - the full tank thing is to get you
home or to the agents.
That's interesting, was it worse during hot weather?
I did have an Autograss car once that had a noisy pump, on the dyno the tank did get warm to touch (small one gallon ally tank) it was fitted with a
Bosch 044 pump, the engine (Honda vtec) made 235bhp so the pump was well over rated.
Just out of interest we decided to fit a pump resistor (0.47ohm) this dropped the pump supply from 14v to 12v with engine running. The pump went
quite.
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pewe
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| posted on 20/7/14 at 10:21 AM |
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OK I'll say what others on here are no doubt thinking - Clairetoo & Bailey you've done your handbagging bit in equal amounts so why
not kiss and make up?
As another constructive comment have you checked all the connections are tight and pipework not perished or split?
Years ago whilst perched on top of a mountain in the Black Forest our 760 Volvo refused to pump anything more than half a tank. Turned out the in-tank
lift pump had a split in the rubber connector pipe but underneath/behind the pipe clip which secured it.
Once the fuel level dropped it started to suck air rather than fuel.
Given I was reluctant to pay local garage charges I telephoned a colleague back in the UK and had them go to the local Volvo agent and buy a
replacement pipe (a few quids worth of nitrile IIRC).
At 1500hrs on a Friday afternoon they posted it SwiftAir from the local post office to the campsite.
We were walking down to the local village on Sunday morning when a helicopter clattered up the valley.
Jokingly I said to the better half "that will be our pipe arriving".
Arriving back at the site later we were handed the SwiftAir package.
Efficient these Germans, Deutsche Post had only sent a helicopter up with it!
Hope you get sorted Claire.
Cheers, Pewe10 
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clairetoo
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| posted on 20/7/14 at 10:37 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by pewe
OK I'll say what others on here are no doubt thinking - Clairetoo & Bailey you've done your handbagging bit in equal amounts so why
not kiss and make up?
As another constructive comment have you checked all the connections are tight and pipework not perished or split?
Years ago whilst perched on top of a mountain in the Black Forest our 760 Volvo refused to pump anything more than half a tank. Turned out the in-tank
lift pump had a split in the rubber connector pipe but underneath/behind the pipe clip which secured it.
Once the fuel level dropped it started to suck air rather than fuel.
Given I was reluctant to pay local garage charges I telephoned a colleague back in the UK and had them go to the local Volvo agent and buy a
replacement pipe (a few quids worth of nitrile IIRC).
At 1500hrs on a Friday afternoon they posted it SwiftAir from the local post office to the campsite.
We were walking down to the local village on Sunday morning when a helicopter clattered up the valley.
Jokingly I said to the better half "that will be our pipe arriving".
Arriving back at the site later we were handed the SwiftAir package.
Efficient these Germans, Deutsche Post had only sent a helicopter up with it!
Hope you get sorted Claire.
Cheers, Pewe10
Thats pretty cool - I'm waiting on the Italian postal service to deliver me a replacement stock pump (supposed to be here tomorrow
morning.....)
Cant see them sending a helicopter though........maybe a man on a Vespa
I did wonder if the stock pump would be man enough , but the walbro came up at a good price........I've since found that the Mx6 (where the V6
came from) has the same part number for the pump as the Mx5 .
Edit to add - its all metal inside the tank , so no hose to perish , and the `o' ring is good , also checked all the electrical connections .
[Edited on 20/7/14 by clairetoo]
Its cuz I is blond , innit
Claire xx
Will weld for food......
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