Talon Motorsport
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| posted on 9/3/17 at 09:40 PM |
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VAG group engines as a mid mounted donor?
Been looking on ebay and wikipedia at VAG group engines and gearboxes so Golf mk4+5, Seat Leon, Audi 3 for use in a midi Sports2000/Radical type
build. What draws me to them is the gearboxes seem to all have bolt on CV joints which would be handy for joining Sierra/Granada based bearing
carriers too which would make the rear soo much easier to sort.
I've never looked at or even driven any of these before what are people's opinions on these to work with, are they worth while donors and
how easy are they to mildly tune with them being turbo?
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Ugg10
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| posted on 9/3/17 at 10:04 PM |
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Why not use the Audi A4/a6 or Passat version which is longitudinal with a transaxle, better suited to a mid engine car imo. The Westfield xtr4 had
this set up along with the odd spire gt and the slc nemesis. 1.8t is easily tunable to 300hp without internal mods if you get the right one. Loads of
tuning companies for advice or bits. You can always use the 2wd gearbox but with Quattro rear uprights.
[Edited on 9/3/17 by Ugg10]
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1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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Talon Motorsport
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| posted on 9/3/17 at 10:07 PM |
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Ah been looking at the wrong cars then, right neck of the woods wrong bloody tree! thanks for that.
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Ugg10
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| posted on 9/3/17 at 10:15 PM |
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No problem, those you identified are traditional fwd transverse engines, the A4/a6/Passat are a bit weird with a transaxle with a longitudinal engine
hung out front of the front axle. One of the benefits, if you make the engine bay big enough you can go from a poverty spec 150hp 1.8t through the 2.7
twin turbo to the 4.2 v8 fairly easily.
Thinking about it if you use the A4 or Passat as a donor you could use the quattro uprights front and rear with the 2wd transaxle plus engine mated to
the rears. The Boxster uses effectively the same box as the Audi but has a better gear linkage pointing the right way for a mid engine car. May be
worth a look.
Xtr4 engine bay
[Edited on 9/3/17 by Ugg10]
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1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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Talon Motorsport
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| posted on 9/3/17 at 10:34 PM |
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Now that is interesting do they all share the same bolt pattern or just close enough not to be a complete bitch to mix and match?
Reason I'm asking is I've been offered some body molds at a price that's just to good to be ignored.......
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Ugg10
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| posted on 9/3/17 at 10:55 PM |
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Not sure, there are at least three if not more different 2wd transaxle, if you google Audi gt40 pages there is quite a bit on the web and also Audi
Boxster conversions. Iirc there is a us company that do flywheel kits for the Audi v8 engines to fit Boxster gearbox.
Iirc the 2.5tdi 6 speed is the box to get and I think there is even a version with an lsd but these go for £££££££
http://ttvracing.com/product/audi-v8-4-2-32v-10-bolt-crank-abz/
More info here http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=164056
[Edited on 9/3/17 by Ugg10]
[Edited on 9/3/17 by Ugg10]
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1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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rachaeljf
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| posted on 9/3/17 at 11:51 PM |
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The Audi A4/A6 transaxle bellhousings have multiple holes to fit all their 4, 5 and 6 cylinder engines. The V8s have bespoke V8 only bellhousings I
believe.
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Texan
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| posted on 10/3/17 at 04:12 AM |
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I've had the same thought but ran out of steam when I tried to find a way to use any of the stock ecus or wiring harnesses. You had to go
really old to be able to use them and I simply don't want to do a standalone.
I've worked on standalone tuning and it's a never ending battle. When your altitude changes or temp changes you're out there putting
a different tune on it. I grew up with distributors w/points and carbs and it was an endless battle to keep them all working properly. I swore
I'd never do that again.
So has someone found a way to use the stock ecus on the modern VW/Audi engines?
I drive therefore I am.
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Talon Motorsport
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| posted on 10/3/17 at 06:44 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Texan
I've had the same thought but ran out of steam when I tried to find a way to use any of the stock ecus or wiring harnesses. You had to go
really old to be able to use them and I simply don't want to do a standalone.
I've worked on standalone tuning and it's a never ending battle. When your altitude changes or temp changes you're out there putting
a different tune on it. I grew up with distributors w/points and carbs and it was an endless battle to keep them all working properly. I swore
I'd never do that again.
So has someone found a way to use the stock ecus on the modern VW/Audi engines?
What issue's did you have with the OE ECU's and loom was it the immobilizer or that it was just too heavily integrated in to the rest of
the car?
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roadrunner
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| posted on 10/3/17 at 11:06 AM |
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You want the s4 a6 or s5 v6 supercharged engine. Smaller than the v8 , but more drivable. Plus a quick remap plus pulley upgrade can c u north of 450
horse's from 340.
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Texan
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| posted on 11/3/17 at 05:30 AM |
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I never tried the VAG engines because everyone said it wouldn't work. And by everyone I mean literally everyone in all genres of cars, magazines
or forums. I know the Donks use it but they use a standalone.
There was the immobilizer issue but mostly because they said so many sensors were deemed necessary by the ecu and it wouldn't run without them.
That's why they've all said you had to use a much older version of ecu or go standalone.
I drive therefore I am.
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owelly
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| posted on 11/3/17 at 08:11 AM |
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We've been looking at the VAG V6 out of the A6/8 to go in the back of a Midtec. The measurements are very favourable.
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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ftaffy
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| posted on 4/4/17 at 10:51 AM |
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I have a V6 in the garage with the auto/tip gearbox from the Passat.
Been trying to make it work as a middy but stuck at uprights, the VW/Audi ones do not translate well.
Possibly custom all round identical (similar to the Nemesis approach) uprights and use cut down shafts up front.
Will follow with interest.
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dai1983
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| posted on 26/4/17 at 02:19 PM |
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Any more thoughts on this? Been looking into VAG options myself:
1.8T starting from 150bhp that goes to 180bhp with a remap. Anymore you need a different turbo.
Ali blocked 130bhp 2.0 that I can't find any tuning into for.
Ali V6 2.8 and 3.0 engines that only come on Quattro gearboxes. Similar weight to the iron blocked 1.8.
Ali v8 that comes in Quattro and auto A8s
Why can't the standard ECUs be used? Sure I've seen a tutorial on how to do it in a mk2 golf
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dwebber597
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| posted on 26/4/17 at 03:02 PM |
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The vag group cars have an immobiliser in the clocks and in the ECU. If it doesn't sense the correct VIN then it won't start. I think
there are ways of bypassing by flashing the ECU yourself. Ive used the software on my old Leon cupra to reprogram a new key.
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Russell
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| posted on 26/4/17 at 03:10 PM |
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I've got a 1.8T with inline transaxle from a 1998 Passat mid mounted in a Spire GTR. I'm using the OEM ECU remapped to 190bhp and
immobiliser defeated. Once the immobiliser has been removed it's very straightforward to get the engine running. I stripped, shortened,
re-routed and generally tidied up the OEM loom to suit the new layout in the back of the Spire.
It's all very do-able, certainly on the older engine/wiring combos.
I'm a bilingual illiterate. I can't read in two languages.
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dai1983
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| posted on 26/4/17 at 03:55 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Russell
I've got a 1.8T with inline transaxle from a 1998 Passat mid mounted in a Spire GTR. I'm using the OEM ECU remapped to 190bhp and
immobiliser defeated. Once the immobiliser has been removed it's very straightforward to get the engine running. I stripped, shortened,
re-routed and generally tidied up the OEM loom to suit the new layout in the back of the Spire.
It's all very do-able, certainly on the older engine/wiring combos.
Just out of interest have you weighed the car and what front to rear bias does it have? Where is the fuel tank?
One of the drawbacks of using a transaxle for me would be fuel tank placement. I'm not too keen on having it in a sidepod next to my passenger
or in front of us.
If I used a regular FWD box then the tank would fit between the engine and rear bulkhead. In a transaxle car I could make the chassis longer and do
the same or make it wider and put the tank inside a mock transmission tunnel. Either option may not suit the rest of the car though.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 26/4/17 at 04:21 PM |
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The level of complexity in modern VAG electronic control engine systems is an order of magnitude greater than just about anything with 4 wheels short
of an F1 car.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 26/4/17 at 05:20 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Texan
I never tried the VAG engines because everyone said it wouldn't work. And by everyone I mean literally everyone in all genres of cars, magazines
or forums. I know the Donks use it but they use a standalone.
There was the immobilizer issue but mostly because they said so many sensors were deemed necessary by the ecu and it wouldn't run without them.
That's why they've all said you had to use a much older version of ecu or go standalone.
A good example is a 2004 S5 V8 engine mounts are monitored by the PCM if the PCM dosen't see the control solenoids for the engine mounts it
cuts the power of the engine to limp home which is only about 10% of the normal output.
[Edited on 26/4/17 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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Russell
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| posted on 26/4/17 at 06:32 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by dai1983
quote:
Originally posted by Russell
I've got a 1.8T with inline transaxle from a 1998 Passat mid mounted in a Spire GTR. I'm using the OEM ECU remapped to 190bhp and
immobiliser defeated. Once the immobiliser has been removed it's very straightforward to get the engine running. I stripped, shortened,
re-routed and generally tidied up the OEM loom to suit the new layout in the back of the Spire.
It's all very do-able, certainly on the older engine/wiring combos.
Just out of interest have you weighed the car and what front to rear bias does it have? Where is the fuel tank?
One of the drawbacks of using a transaxle for me would be fuel tank placement. I'm not too keen on having it in a sidepod next to my passenger
or in front of us.
If I used a regular FWD box then the tank would fit between the engine and rear bulkhead. In a transaxle car I could make the chassis longer and do
the same or make it wider and put the tank inside a mock transmission tunnel. Either option may not suit the rest of the car though.
Nope, haven't weighed it. It runs and drives but is far from finished. The fuel tank fits between the engine and the bulkhead. I guess
there's a risk of the engine hitting the tank in a rear end shunt but it's probably still better protected than in a Seven type car.
I'm a bilingual illiterate. I can't read in two languages.
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nye
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| posted on 26/4/17 at 08:14 PM |
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I'm currently putting a 1.8t into a Luego so front engined but as far as ecu and wiring like has been said it really isn't that complex,
aslong as you get the engine wiring loom. Other than that I think there's only a handful of wires the ecu needs to actually work (3 MAF wiring ,
3 power for ecu, k-line out, earth) I may be wrong though.
Hoping to have mine running in next few weeks so should be able to help with any questions.
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dai1983
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| posted on 28/4/17 at 09:03 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Russell
Nope, haven't weighed it. It runs and drives but is far from finished. The fuel tank fits between the engine and the bulkhead. I guess
there's a risk of the engine hitting the tank in a rear end shunt but it's probably still better protected than in a Seven type car.
Do you have any pics of the tank and what flywheel have you used?
I'm waning to build a 60s style sports racer like a Lotus 19 or Cooper Monaco etc. The Audi layout suits the application and I've found a
basic Lotus 19 chassis in CAD that I can use as a starting point. I'm also conserned about the weight and power deliver of the 1.8T in a sports
car but XTR4s seem OK and quoted at 550kg.
Other option is a 2.3 Duratec out of a Mazda 6 which would be NA and lighter but longitudinal just looks so right!
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