samwilliams
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| posted on 14/11/05 at 05:24 PM |
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Help, I have no idea what I'm doing!
I've just gone and bought a Sylva Phoenix with a 1.6 Crossflow engine, which will quite possibly turn out to be one of the most stupid decisions
ever, as I know next to nothing about the internal workings of a car!
The car has been not doing very much at all for the last year, and so almost certainly needs a bit of cleaning and tuning and stuff (I presume), but I
just don't know where to start. I'm finding it a bit awkward (or impossible, at times!) to start it, and that may be down to bits needing
cleaning or replacing, or possibly just my ineptness, having only had cars that would start nicely beforehand. Once it's going, it seems to be
pretty good, although I'm pretty sure it's not perfect.
Is there anyone around the Bath area who might be able to become my hero and point me in the right direction and possibly even give me a hand?
Please?!!!
Thank you very much.
Sam
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 14/11/05 at 05:31 PM |
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Well, for starters, it's a decent car with a good, basic, if old-fashioned engine. Good decisions so far!
The engine is a good one to learn on, as it's as sophisticated as Meccano. If you don't treat it too horribly, follow the basic rules
(see Haynes manual for an Escort Mk2) it will serve you well.
Get some basic car mtce manuals from the library and see how you get on.
David
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rayward
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| posted on 14/11/05 at 06:11 PM |
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HI,
if the cars been stood a while, first things are, fresh petrol(it goes off after a while), new spark plugs, air filter, oil and filter change.
if that doesn't sort it out, maybe points, distibutor cap and HT Leads next.
HTH
Ray
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Mark18
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| posted on 14/11/05 at 08:07 PM |
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Before I started building mine, I hadn't even changed a set of sparkplugs, now I'm on the home stretch. All you need is patience, and it
will turn into one of your best decisions.
Mark
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samwilliams
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| posted on 14/11/05 at 08:16 PM |
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I'm sure it'll be fantastic once I get it running a bit smoother, but at the moment it's a little worrying having a car that I
can't start sitting outside!
I've got the escort haynes manual that the previous owner had and gave to me, but it comes from a time when people had an idea of what they were
doing to start with, and I don't!
Would the ford crossflow haynes manual be any more useful, or is it also targetted at people who know what they're doing?
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 14/11/05 at 08:48 PM |
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quote:
Would the ford crossflow haynes manual be any more useful, or is it also targetted at people who know what they're doing?
It's a good book if you want to take the engine to pieces and rebuild it - otherwise, the Escort book should be enough.
There are some beginners' guides to car maintenance around - check out your local library. The older ones will be the most useful
David
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jimgiblett
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| posted on 14/11/05 at 09:09 PM |
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Excellent choice of car.
 
Another excellent place to look is the
Sylva Chat List
Between the Sylva chat list and Locostbuilders there is enough accumulated knowledge to help you fix almost anything.
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James
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| posted on 15/11/05 at 08:33 AM |
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Sam,
There might well be a beginners car maintenance course (evening classes) at your local FE college. I know there's one at mine!
HTH,
James
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
- Muhammad Ali
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samwilliams
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| posted on 15/11/05 at 12:50 PM |
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I think I'm going to go on a search for some car maintenance books. At the moment I think that the main problem is just me, and not really
having got the knack of starting it yet. Well, not being able to start it all right now!
Have a friend coming over later who knows a little more than me, so hopefully will get somewhere then. We shall see!
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 15/11/05 at 12:54 PM |
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Here's how I start my X-flow from cold:
1. Ignition on
2. Choke out (amount according to weather!)
3. Two quick pushes on the accelerator pedal
4. Turn key to "start"
Push the choke back in as soon as the engine allows.
Different when the engine's hot - don't touch the choke or pedal, just crank it.
This only works when the engine's set up near-enough correct!
David
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samwilliams
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| posted on 15/11/05 at 12:58 PM |
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As I've been trying to start it and failing, admittedlt probably because I've been doing the wrong things, is there now something that I
need to do to it before it will start properly by doing it the right way?
I've been looking through everything I can find, and had a few ideas, but don't really know what's necessary or advisable, or not.
Would just leaving it for a few hours let it all settle back to the way it was?!
Sam
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DarrenW
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| posted on 15/11/05 at 03:22 PM |
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Sam,
Presumably the car has ran before. Did the last owner start it for you to hear or have you never heard it run.
assuming you have never heard it run;
1. Do some basic checks - does it have water in? Is oil up to the correct mark on dipstick (also say what colour the oil is and what it smells
like).
2. How long do you suspect the petrol has been left standing? If more than 6 months remove old fuel and replace (you can do this by removing a pipe
from bottom of tank - usual rules about flammability apply and have suitable sized container ready to catch old fuel).
3. Remove a spark plug and take a look. healthy plugs are a light brown even colour. Black and oily is not so good - replace them if they look
shitty.
4. Ensure battery is full of charge.
5. Now try and start it. It should turn over briskly.
6. If at any point you see fuel leaking or smell excessive fuel, stop and investigate. If the carb has not been used for a long time then the seals
could be perished.
If it starts up then great. If not then we can do some more checks later. EG, checking the connections to coil and plugs are good. Checking for spark
at coil and at plugs. Checking for fuel.
It would be nice to know what carb, what ignition system (if you take dizzy cap off, 2 spring clips, you might see some points inside, take a pic if
you are not sure). in fact pics of engine bay, dizzy etc may help someone talk you through some advice.
Golden rule, be thorough and logical. Dont go ripping it apart. If it aint broke, dont fix it.
Have fun. Nice choice of car by the way.
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 15/11/05 at 03:29 PM |
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Just a thought - take the distributor cover off and see if the rotor arm is fitted!
You wouldn't be the first (or last) to be caught by that one.
David
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samwilliams
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| posted on 15/11/05 at 03:35 PM |
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Thanks for all the suggestions.
The car does/did run fine. I drove it back home after picking it up. It has the right amount of oil (although could probably do with a change) and
water. When I got it, the person I got it off managed to start it without too much difficulty, and that was with old petrol in. It's since had a
new tank of petrol (which it ran fine on). That's why I'm inclined to think that it's as much something I'm doing, rather than
something with the car, that's going wrong.
If I have just done something wrong and flooded the engine or something (don't really know what I'm talking about though), what would I
have to do to get it back to a point where it could be started properly?
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DarrenW
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| posted on 15/11/05 at 03:41 PM |
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You dont say if you have a good toolkit or not. If not and are rushing out to buy some, can i suggest you dont buy the cheapest. It is tempting to get
a 458 piece set from argos for 4.99 but here is a short story to help you make th echoice.
A few years back i used to get BMW serviced by good local independant. He had a lovely high spec Porsche 944 Turbo in. Engine in bits. I had to ask
why. The owner decided to change spark plugs. He was a complete novice and had said toolkit above. He didnt realise the ball out of the Ratchet was
missing........... you guessed it it ended up down spark plug hole. Not only did it wreck the cylinder head but also took out one of the block liners.
Cost him over 2 grand to have engine repaired.
I have been using the Halfords professional range sockets and ratchets for years. they are very good. You dont have to buy Snap on but get the best
you can afford.
Rotor arm check is good idea - that will be in the Haynes manual.
Just how much of a novice are you?
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DarrenW
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| posted on 15/11/05 at 03:45 PM |
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If you drove it home then that changes things a lot. Have you taken anything off or possibly dislodged some wires? probably not. There cant be much
wrong with it.
Manual choke? If so dont forget to put the choke on, 2 blips of throttle, turn the key and it should be away. Push choke back in asap when engine will
let you (itll die if you push in too soon). If you suspect you have flooded it just leave for a short while and retry. This is good time to check
plugs.
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 15/11/05 at 03:47 PM |
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Press the accelerator down SLOWLY to the floor. Make sure the choke is off, and crank. Expect the car to churn over for a few seconds, then start
very suddenly (if it is flooded, that is).
Otherwise, take all the plugs out (remember which lead goes where!), disconnect the coil, and crank the engine. Expect a strong smell of petrol!
Leave the plugs out for a while, then clean and check them, and replace. Put the leads back on and try again.
For future reference, I have always found that if it fails to start on the first or second attempt with the choke out, don't keep cranking as it
will flood. Set the choke to off and try again - if it starts and then stops shortly after, then you may need a bit of choke.
David
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samwilliams
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| posted on 15/11/05 at 03:51 PM |
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I am very much a novice sadly! Will try every suggestion that comes in. Should have a friend of mine who knows a bit more than me coming over later to
give me a hand, but I'm sure it'll be pretty simple in the end.
I took a couple of pictures which are now in my photo archive bit. Not sure if they show anything that might be useful to know or not. If not,
I'll try again!
Thanks again for all your suggestions.
Sam
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samwilliams
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| posted on 15/11/05 at 03:54 PM |
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One thing that I did notice, which may or may not be relevant. The leads from the distributor cap to the spark plugs appear to be reversed to the
diagram in the haynes manual I've got. I have taken off the cap, put don't think I've put it back the wrong way round, simply
because the leads don't lie comfortably if you try and put it on the other way. I've seen a few mentions of problems being caused by it
being 180 degrees wrong, but could this just be that it had been set up the other way round to start with?
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samwilliams
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| posted on 15/11/05 at 03:58 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
Press the accelerator down SLOWLY to the floor. Make sure the choke is off, and crank. Expect the car to churn over for a few seconds, then start
very suddenly (if it is flooded, that is).
Otherwise, take all the plugs out (remember which lead goes where!), disconnect the coil, and crank the engine. Expect a strong smell of petrol!
Leave the plugs out for a while, then clean and check them, and replace. Put the leads back on and try again.
I appreciate I'm embarassing myself with an incredible lack of knowledge here, but such is life. For the first bit, should I be cranking the
engine as I slowly depress the accelerator, or only start cranking once it's fully depressed?
And now for the bit I should truly hang my head in shame for (we've all got to start somewhere, I just happen to be at the bottom!). Which bit
is the coil?!
Thanks
Sam
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 15/11/05 at 04:04 PM |
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Slow depress BEFORE cranking! Be ready to lift off if the engine does start. When you press the pedal normally, a bit of the carb pumps extra fuel
into the airway (this is the reason for the "2 pumps and start" idea). By pushing down slowly the pump will hardly operate, if at all,
and thus won't add extra fuel to the problem. By having your foot to the floor when trying to start will add a lot of air into the engine
without enough "suck" to pull in much fuel, hopefully diluting the raw fuel in the cylinders and allowing it to start.
Thinking about it, taking the plugs out is probably the easiest way - you'll be able to see if it's flooded, as if that is the case then
they'll be soaked in petrol.
If the plugs look a grotty then replacing them would be a good move - dry, clean new plugs make starting soooo much easier!
Finding the coil: go to the distributor. look at the center HT lead - the coil is at the other end. A metal cylinder with one big connector for the
HT lead, plus a couple of tags lower down - pull one of these off to crank the engine without risk of ignition (put it in a safe place where it
won't touch anything, or get tangled in moving bits.
David
P.S. You're right - you do need to do some homework! 
[Edited on 15/11/05 by David Jenkins]
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DarrenW
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| posted on 15/11/05 at 04:36 PM |
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Dont apologise for being a novice. As you say we all have to start somewhere. You have started in the right place with a desire to suss it out. I only
asked so we can pitch our advice at the right level. No point in us telling you to check static timing if you are learning about coild and
distributors.
Dizzy cap will only comfortably go on one way, there is a notch in the dizzy that locates with the cap. A tip for you - if you are unsure how to
re-assemble after taking things apart, take a digi photo or make notes / sketches or mark the parts up BEFORE taking off.
It ran before and no doubt will run very soon. Dont dismantle too much if you are unsure how it should be. Start with the basics. Follow Davids advice
on starting procedure first.
Dont forget also that flat batteries can seem to be turning engine over but may have insufficient current to make it spark. If in doubt charge it up
or attach some jump leads.
My father always told me with old cars that if it was oK befor ethen look at ignition first and fuel later. Most faults on old systems tend to be
spark related.
Coil - simple device that takes 12V in and gives 1000's volts out. Sends high voltage to the distributor.
Distributor - it is turned by the engine (hence why timing has to be right and yours cant be far away so dont worry about that for now). Centre wire
is feed from coil. Rotor arm (just under the cap)turns and send high voltage pulse down each of the plug leads in turn to the spark plugs.
Spark Plugs - screwed into cylinder head. They are just a device with a gap. Voltage jumps across gap and the spark ignites the fuel / air mixture
provided by the carb.
Ignition systems hate dirty contacts, old worn plugs, dizzy cap, rotor arms and points and flat/old batteries. It loves fresh clean full power
connections.
I hope this helps so you can get you head around what you are looking at. Years ago i had a series of books that explained all of this stuff in very
simple language. Id recommend either getting a mate who knows to show you or enrol in a course at college.
Dont be frightened to ask. I got first car at 15, 19 years ago, and have ran a few wrecks and did 4 year apprenticeship.
Best of luck. Let us jknow how you get on.
(another point - this section doesnt get a lot of views. Other sections (eg engine and transmission etc) might get more hits but may also overwhelm
you with advice - your choice)
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 15/11/05 at 04:43 PM |
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What he said!
Just a thought - disconnect just 1 lead to start with, and take the plug out. Try not to get muck down the hole!
take a good look at the business end of the plug. In an ideal world the metal bits at the tip should have a light brown coating - looks like biscuit.
If the engine is flooded, the end will be black, wet and stinking of petrol.
If you do one lead/plug at a time, you won't put them back in the wrong place!
David
[Edited on 15/11/05 by David Jenkins]
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samwilliams
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| posted on 15/11/05 at 06:01 PM |
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Just went and had a go with the putting the accelerator to the floor and starting (with the help of jump leads, as the battery was getting tired), and
it started but wasn't running right, and wouldn't rev at all. Could that be that one or more of the spark plugs isn't firing
properly?
It's going in the right direction at least. Should have my friend with the spark plug tool thing turning up soon.
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paulf
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| posted on 15/11/05 at 06:44 PM |
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It sounds as if the plugs are dirty, I have had this with my car before, mainly when moving it in and out of the garage without getting the engine up
to temperature. I found that if I heated the spark plug electrode with a blowlamp until red hot it cured the problem, or you could just fit a set of
fresh plugs.
Paul
quote:
Originally posted by samwilliams
Just went and had a go with the putting the accelerator to the floor and starting (with the help of jump leads, as the battery was getting tired), and
it started but wasn't running right, and wouldn't rev at all. Could that be that one or more of the spark plugs isn't firing
properly?
It's going in the right direction at least. Should have my friend with the spark plug tool thing turning up soon.
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