James
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| posted on 30/4/07 at 03:41 PM |
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OT Plumbing: solder or copper or plastic pushfit?
Soon gonna have to do some plumbing on my new house.
For some reason my girlfriend thinks that the 2nd bedroom (The Abu Ghraib Suite) actually needs a radiator. 
So question is, do I learn to solder properly will all the associated risks of leaks etc. Or do I use pushfit?
And if I use pushfit, do I use plastic or copper?
Pushfit somehow seems a bit of an anateur's bodge, but even a plumber friend of mine recommended it and says it's what he uses.
Thanks!
James
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"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
- Muhammad Ali
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Hellfire
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| posted on 30/4/07 at 03:47 PM |
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Personally I'd learn to solder, nothing is as good as a soldered joint you have done yourself. Honest!
My cousin has been CORGI registered for a while now, learned to solder and stuff but my soldered joints are tidier than his but he swears by End
Feed Joints (no rings of solder) inside. The no-solder type are very slimline and perfect if you don't like the visual side of joints like
pushfit type which; if you can see them; are Fugly...
DIY - you know you wanna... 
Steve
[Edited on 30-4-07 by Hellfire]
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02GF74
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| posted on 30/4/07 at 03:49 PM |
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I would go for soldering as I don;t trust the push fit.
If you buy the preformed/presodlered pipes - mnore epsneive than those you add solder to, then it is a oush fiut and heat.
once you cna see the solder coming out all aroudn the joint menas it is done.
secret is to clean the metal up nicely and use flux.
... now let's wait for someone to come along who really knows what they are talking about.
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graememk
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| posted on 30/4/07 at 03:53 PM |
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i fitted a shower at xmas and lernt to solder at the same time, again make sure they are shiny clean and flux before, and dont go to mad with the heat
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Howlor
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| posted on 30/4/07 at 04:09 PM |
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I tried push fit copper for an inaccesible joint but found real trouble in keeping it square to insert the pipe. I nicked the o ring and it leaked.
You can't beat soldered joints IMHO. Clean both the inside of the joint and the outside of the pipe until shiney with wire wool. Then a smear of
flux on both surfaces again. Ensure you have no water at all left in the pipes otherwise it is difficult to build up enough heat.
Make sure you get it really hot then just dab a little solder on the joint and if alls well then it should run fast around the full joint. Bingo jobs
a good un!
Steve
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Aboardman
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| posted on 30/4/07 at 04:10 PM |
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try and get is an electric solder pliers, B&Q used to sell them with various sizes of ends to suit different pipes. it just clamped around a
presolder joint leave, remove once the solder comes out.
i was in b&q and they where selling liquid solder, squirt on twist the fittings and done, that is with copper pipe and end feed.
[Edited on 30/4/07 by Aboardman]
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Keith Weiland
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| posted on 30/4/07 at 04:25 PM |
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There is really nothing easier than making a good solder joint. As someone said clean with wire wool or emery cloth inside the fitting and outside the
pipe. Flux both well but not too much. Heat the joint on the fittings keeping the flame a little ways away from the joint itself. Touch the solder
against the joint and when the joint is hot enough it will start to flow into the joint. Keep a damp cloth near and when the solder fills the joint
wipe around the joint quickly with the damp cloth.
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mookaloid
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| posted on 30/4/07 at 04:28 PM |
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I quite like the Plastic stuff - contrary to most of the opinion on here.
It is very easy to install - particularly in awkward spaces, you don't have to be too accurate with it as it 'gives' a bit. It
doesn't and creak and bang like copper can do when it heats up and cools down, and cos it's bendy you use less fittings.
The best bit is if you are in a hard water area it doesn't fur up inside.
Just my 2p worth
Cheers
mark
"That thing you're thinking - it wont be that."
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bodger
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| posted on 30/4/07 at 04:47 PM |
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Re-plumbed my house a few years ago. Used soldered & push fit. Here's my 2p:
1/ If a soldered joints going to leak it's going to do it straight away so at least you'll know.
2/ Push fit is quicker & you don't need to worry about setting fire to the house. BUT:
3/ It's a lot more expensive & the only 2 leaks I've had post install have been on push-fit.
4/ If I did it again I would use soldered where possible.
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MkIndy7
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| posted on 30/4/07 at 05:50 PM |
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As a CORGI registered bodger, its advisable NOT to use wire wool any more as if any strands of the wire are left on or in the joint it can rust and
cause it to leak.
We use cleaning strips or pads that are abrasive and a bit like the Green side of a sponge pan scratter.
Soldiering as said before is extremely easy if the correct preperation work is done and it makes a much neater job than the plastic and needs less
supporting as its not flexing all over the place.
The lengths on of plastic pipe are cheeper than copper but the fittings are ALOT more expencive! than end feed copper (but as mentioned before you can
bend the pipe) although with a bit of skill and a spring or pipe bender you can bend copper as well.
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bracey
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| posted on 30/4/07 at 06:05 PM |
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n o ones mentioned less heat loss through plastic?
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caber
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| posted on 30/4/07 at 06:52 PM |
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I have had a bunch of problems with push fit at about 10 years old. The O rings had hardened and started to leak.Had to replace them all as i
couldn't get access to replace with soldered joints so will change again in about 8 years to save arguments with downstairs neighbours!
Caber
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iiyama
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| posted on 30/4/07 at 08:09 PM |
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Push fit is fine. I use Speedfit all the time where it cant be seen. No fire risk in lofts and can be 'threaded' through tight areas like
cable. However you should always use inserts, preferably the superseal ones.
Anywhere pipework can be seen I use copper with end feed fittings and/or machine bends.
Thought should be given to pipe runs. If its running mains pressure then its not to much of a problem, however gravity fed runs should really have
machine bends rather then fittings as the water will flow better. Cold form bends can be used with plastic to give what is in essence a machine
bend.
As for heat loss, any longish run of pipe thats carrying hot water should be lagged anyway if its in a cold area. There are also regulations now
relating to maximum lengths for hot water runs.
Anyway, to sum up, Speedfit where you cant see it, (but use inserts), and copper where you can see it.
If its broke, fix it. If it aint broke, take it apart and find out how it works!
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MkIndy7
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| posted on 30/4/07 at 09:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by caber
I have had a bunch of problems with push fit at about 10 years old. The O rings had hardened and started to leak.
Caber
I think this issue has been solved now, but the original push fit o-rings did only have a suggested lifespan of 10 years.
There was/is also two different types of plastic pipe for hot/cold water and Heating Systems due to the temperatures and chemicals contained within
the heating system.
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iiyama
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| posted on 1/5/07 at 07:43 AM |
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The pastics were the same as far as I know. The difference was one was a barrier pipe. If you look at a cross section there were two white rings
sandwiching a black one, the black bit was the barrier and this is to stop oxygen entering.
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DarrenW
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| posted on 1/5/07 at 08:43 AM |
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For plumbing on show i prefer soldered, neater profile if you do it right.
I also like plastic push fits. Some have a screw down ring that prevents the joint pulling apart as well. My hidden bathroom piping will be done in
push fits.
Some will say push fits are a bit of a bodge - certainly not true. Industrial machine manufacturers have been using push fit pneumatic connections for
years with no issues at around 80 to 100psi.
For soldering my best investment was a pro soldering torch and proper pipe splices etc. Make the job so much easier. After that clean the pipe and
clean again. Tub of flux and some extra plumbers solder. makes first job a tad pricey but you will have the kit for years.
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Marcus
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| posted on 1/5/07 at 11:35 AM |
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I prefer plastic push fit stuff, but then I would, as I design and test the stuff! 'o' rings are now designed to last 50 years, so
that's most people (over 30) dead before you hit a problem.
Yes there are different types of plastic pipe, barrier and mono, but there are also different plastics, Polybutylene (PB) and cross linked
polyethylene (PE-X). PB is the better option IMO as it's more flexible.
HTH
Marcus
Because kits are for girls!!
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NS Dev
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| posted on 1/5/07 at 11:56 AM |
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I've always been wary of pushfit for some inexplicable reason, but I think any new work I do will use it now.
The benefits have already been listed, and as Darren said, we use pushfit in terrible conditions at work for pneumatics, chemicals and water with
absolutely no problems at all.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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James
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| posted on 2/5/07 at 10:17 AM |
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Okay, thanks for the advice everyone.
It started out with everyone favouring soldered copper.
So I ordered that.
Now the last few posts have been pro-pushfit.
Doh!
Cheers,
James
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"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
- Muhammad Ali
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ned
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| posted on 2/5/07 at 12:08 PM |
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James,
feel free to pop round and you can see what i've used and where. plastic is ok if unseen, boxed in or buried in a wall (copper needs coating as
gets eaten by concrete/cemet/masonary mix) but anywhere you can't get plastic stuff square or it's going to be seen use copper,
pre-soldered fittings are so easy, even I can do it, just clean up joint area, assemble with flux and heat the pipe until the heat draws the solder
through, just like wiring with a soldering iron which I'm sure you've done!!
Ned.
ps i've used the wickes push fit stuff which is just up the road from yhour new place isn't it? pushfit is quick and easy but you
don't want to have to see it as the joint are big and cumbersome.
[Edited on 2/5/07 by ned]
beware, I've got yellow skin
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