Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by coozer
And, when I get the chance I'm out of the country to Tenerife to see my days out in the sun....
Not if we're out of the EU, you're not - they won't give you a visa.
Sorry to Frank for hijacking his thread.
I'm voting in, because nearly every point raised by the out campaign is complete nonsense.
Discuss.
I,m voting out as I do not want my country controlled/regulated by the other European countries.
They have their own agendas and being cynical a lot of these are absorbing as much as possible from the EU while contributing very little.
Being out does not mean we cannot trade with them, looking at the news about other stronger countries erecting fences etc I get the impression that if
we leave then we may not be the first.
With the U.Ks contribution the EU be bankrupt anyway, trade then goes back to where it started from.
Being threatened by Ohbama was just the icing on the cake.
[Edited on 2/5/16 by mark chandler]
The EU is a unelected, un-audited, ponzi scheme. It needs to grow to survive, the next new countries will be Serbia, Albania and then Turkey. Vote
Leave and we have the opportunity to control our own destiny, Vote Remain and we will be in a European Superstate with no national control at all.
Nice to see the staunch socialist JoelP siding with David Cameron & George Osborne. I'm also impressed that Jeremy Corbyn is backing Remain
having spent his political life campaigning to leave, man of principles !
This referendum is just smoke and mirrors, I'm not going to waste my time listening to either arguments as they make no difference to the
result.
It's not that I don't care (quite the opposite) but if you read article 50, leaving the EU is bloody complicated, and a 'leave
agreement' must in place between all of the EU members and then this agreement has to be approved EU council.
In short, wether we vote to leave or stay, it doesn't matter because the EU has the final say.
The government have done this referendum because if we vote to stay, then they have the justification why we've not left the EU whenever the
topic arises in the future. If we vote to leave, then the EU will probably just block the exit and the government can sit back and put on a sorry face
and say 'we tried to leave but it's not our fault we're having to stay'
At the end of the day, we'll not be leaving the EU because either the referendum will finish with a 'stay' result or alternatively the
EU and its members will simply block us from leaving by not approving (or dragging out beyond reason) the severance agreement.
Country s full, your giving our brilliant island away,the quality of the people that have emergrated compared with the people that will be arriving here is beyond belief, once its gone its gone for good , dont get this one wrong , all my family will be voting out
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Nice to see the staunch socialist JoelP siding with David Cameron & George Osborne. I'm also impressed that Jeremy Corbyn is backing Remain having spent his political life campaigning to leave, man of s !
To those who quote sovereignty etc.:
http://infacts.org/mythbusts/uk-isnt-told/
And those who quote immigration: If EU immigration had been zero the targets set by Cameron would still have been missed. Plus if we want to stay
part of the economic zone it's highly likely we'll need to keep the free movement of people, so no net gain in that respect.
A lot of people quote national pride and a fear of becoming overwhelmed by the EU as a reason to leave - I find it ironic that they keep saying
Britain is great but then turn around and effectively say we would be assimilated into the EU. Look and France, Germany... any of the other countries;
they have kept their national identities, the idea that we would not is selling us massively short.
The Agreement negotiated by Camermoron should be put on telly at prime time as the best comedy ever written. How anyone can be taken in by such bullshit amazes me. OUT, NO DOUBT and proud of my opinion. Amongst other things its about time those who support this country fight back against those that shout racist all the time. Its NOT racist to support your country. Amongst many other things I am sick and tired of being told we need all these people from abroad because those in this country wont do the jobs that they are supposedly prepared to do. Is it not time we started to support our own instead of everyone elses? AND RELAX!!!!!
In for me.
We live and trade in a global economy, not a national one. The UK on its own is only marginally more sensible and viable than an independent Scotland
or Wales.
Nationalism is just petty tribalism, on a slightly larger scale.
I'm out, sick to death of all the regulations imposed on my industry by an unelected bunch of self helpers.....
And, when I get the chance I'm out of the country to Tenerife to see my days out in the sun....
quote:
Originally posted by coozer
And, when I get the chance I'm out of the country to Tenerife to see my days out in the sun....
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by coozer
And, when I get the chance I'm out of the country to Tenerife to see my days out in the sun....
Not if we're out of the EU, you're not - they won't give you a visa.
For the record, 10-14% of British Acts of Parliament are to implement eu agreements. Regulations are a completely different issue. They say small businesses are being strangled by red tape. I run a small business, and I couldn't pinpoint a single eu regulation that affects me.
Out out out! Even if it is a messy divorce, I don't want an Eu army, I don't won't to be governed by unelected foreigners, plus many
more reasons. Hope the Uk take this chance and free ourselves 
It seems to me that a lot of the arguments for leaving (unelected government, economy will get better etc) are the same arguments that were made during the Scottish referendum. However a lot of the politicians arguing to leave are those who argued against Scottish independence. What changed their mind?
quote:
Originally posted by scudderfish...a lot of the politicians arguing to leave are those who argued against Scottish independence. What changed their mind?
I'm still undecided, but I'm leaning more towards out than in.
I have concerns about the Euro, and even though it isn't our currency, I feel that we will end up paying heavily to keep it propped up, because
the only way that can work is if the countries in it become more of a federal entity, rather than separate sovereign nations. But while this is
happening the EU will have to keep bailing weaker countries, like Greece, out all the time.
I believe the EU worked better as a free trade agreement between countries, that didn't get too involved in the regulation of the countries
involved. It's getting too big and cumbersome.
I don't think being out is the be all and end all, but I think it is more of an opportunity , than anything else, I'm willing to take that
risk.
It won't be easy, in fact it will be quite hard, but I think the rewards for the country in the end might be worth it.
But, I also see the advantages of staying in, I like being part of the EU, and the freedom that it gives, and I do consider myself to be a European
at heart, as much as geographically.
Like I said, I don't know yet, but I'm willing to take the risk and see what's out there.
I think what president Obama said was foolish, we have stood shoulder to shoulder with America, when other countries have run a mile, and to
completely dismiss that relationship was not a wise move.
I do think he has hurt the in campaign quite badly with that statement about being at the back of the queue. He obviously doesn't understand the
British stubborn mentality, if you say we can't it, we'll do it just to prove you wrong!!
One thing I do hope though, which ever way the vote goes, I do hope that that will be the end of it, final decision.
The Euro is definitely a flawed idea. Individual nations cannot create money, and you need a mechanism to transfer wealth from rich regions to poor
ones. It needs major reform.
As a vaguely interesting aside, do you all know that private banks create money (or more accurately credit) when they make a loan? They specifically
do not lend you savers' or investors' money.
[Edited on 2/5/16 by JoelP]
quote:
Originally posted by fha772
I have concerns about the Euro, and even though it isn't our currency, I feel that we will end up paying heavily to keep it propped up...
True, but I feel that we will be left out of more and more, because we aren't part of the euro, so maybe it will be to leave, than be at the party sat alone in the corner.
quote:
Originally posted by fha772
True, but I feel that we will be left out of more and more, because we aren't part of the euro, so maybe it will be to leave, than be at the party sat alone in the corner.
If that is our choice, but I feel it won't be our choice to make.
The rest of the world (not just Europe) doesn't much like us because we're arrogant and isolationist.
Your answer to Europe not liking us is to turn our back on them still further.
But why stay where you don't feel welcome?
To be honest, I'm happy to stay in, but I believe either being in or out will very hard over the next few years.
quote:
Originally posted by fha772
But why stay where you don't feel welcome?
It kind of worries me how many people on the Leave side just seem to go with their gut against some kind of "foreign interference"- this is a massive, non-reversible choice that will decide the course of the future of the country. To my mind that requires careful research, ignoring politicians on both sides of the argument.
quote:
Originally posted by Badger_McLetcher
It kind of worries me how many people on the Leave side just seem to go with their gut against some kind of "foreign interference"- this is a massive, non-reversible choice that will decide the course of the future of the country.
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by Badger_McLetcher
It kind of worries me how many people on the Leave side just seem to go with their gut against some kind of "foreign interference"- this is a massive, non-reversible choice that will decide the course of the future of the country.
Yes, this, absolutely.
It puts me in mind of Churchill's comment that the best argument against democracy is a 5-minute conversation with the average voter.... you give people the chance to make a monumentally important decision like this, and they vote according to a funny feeling in their little toe.
I think (to be honest I find all this difficult to understand) there are a few issues that people forget about.
Firstly, the UK is no longer controlling vast parts of the known world. Yes, we still have a large economy, and are "boxing above our
weight" in many areas, but I reckon so much of this could easily diminish if we leave the EU, and we will be down to a small island off the EU
who will be desperate for trade.
Secondly, the role of individual countries in terms of economies is diminishing rapidly. The real power in the world is business, and we need to
ensure we can maximise our attractiveness to businesses. And it seems most of them are keen to "remain"
Thirdly, even if we leave, because of said business that we will be chasing and trying to retain, we will have to offer concessions that could be
worse than what we currently have negotiated as we will loose a lot of our bargaining clout.
Lastly, I believe the EU is in desperate need of reform. This may happen if we leave, and end up creating the sort of EU that many of the
"leavers" want, but it will be too late for us. I doubt we will be invited back too soon....
And I am still unsure which way to vote....
quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
And I am still unsure which way to vote....
quote:
Originally posted by richardm6994
As said in my post on page 1; this referendum is simply smoke and mirrors and the outcome won't effect anything.
Like it or not, I feel we'll not be leaving the EU whatever the outcome of this referendum.
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by richardm6994
As said in my post on page 1; this referendum is simply smoke and mirrors and the outcome won't effect anything.
Like it or not, I feel we'll not be leaving the EU whatever the outcome of this referendum.
The potential flaw in your argument is that you're assuming in the event of an 'out' vote that the rest of Europe would veto our leaving.
Despite that fact that we're the second highest net financial contributor (which is certainly a situation that we need to negotiate strongly on in future), I think you'll find that we have made ourselves sufficiently unpopular with the majority of other member states that they''d be glad to see the back of us at any cost.
If that's the game our Government is playing, there's a strong chance that the rest of Europe will call their bluff.
quote:
Originally posted by richardm6994
popular or not, it's all about the money and I'll eat my hat if we end up actually exiting the EU.
quote:
Originally posted by richardm6994
What have the EU got to gain in us leaving? vs what do they lose if we leave? This is the reasoning behind my veto assumption.
: Look, I'm not arguing the point of staying or leaving the EU, my opinion is that the government wouldn't take the risk of an EU referendum
unless the outcome was fixed.
My educated opinion without writing chapter and verse and boring everyone, is that the result of the EU referendum simply won't make the
slightest but of difference to our seat at the EU table because we'll either vote to stay or the EU will veto our severance agreement.
Those wanting out, the only way it will happen is through an EU collapse.
Not that it necessarily reflects my opinion, but if I was a betting man, the referendum will finish with a STAY vote anyway so my theory about the
veto will probably never be proven anyway..........off to william hill now
just to add a little to Sam_68's post above
If its an out vote, yes we will still be able to trade with the EU in one from or another. (on there terms of course)
BUT we will still have to follow near enough all the EU regulations to do so - only we won't have any say in what they are....
[Edited on 3/5/2016 by mcerd1]
quote:
Originally posted by richardm6994...the government wouldn't take the risk of an EU referendum unless the outcome was fixed.
quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
If its an out vote, yes we will still be able to trade with the EU in one from or another. (on their terms of course)
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by richardm6994...the government wouldn't take the risk of an EU referendum unless the outcome was fixed.
I think you credit our politicians with a lot more intelligence and foresight, and a lot less short-term political self-interest, than they deserve.
No, I just credit them with a lot more deviousness than most. Lies upon lies is a politician's ethos and they are masters at making people
believe they have a choice when really they hold al the cards. The problem with the EU is that it is built on a lie. That lie is that you can have a single currency plus free movement of people, goods &
services and capital without transfer payments.
No individual country denies this to be true for their territory yet the individual governments of the respective countries keep telling us this
isn't going to happen. Fact is massive amounts of funding should be shifted, for example, from Germany to Greece. However the German people
wouldn't accept it.
Very few people in the South East of England complain when money is spent reinvigorating other parts of the UK. We need to be like this in the EU,
with a single government, if we want it to work.
Given that nobody accepts this we should probably leave which is a shame because it could have been great [maybe if we were in charge )
[Edited on 3/5/16 by SJ]
I'm firmly in the remain side. It is the only side with evidence that can be even the slightest bit tangible. We can make forecasts based on
previous years of EU membership. It still is a complete unknown but at least we won't end up going belly up whilst our neighbours continue to
develop and grow.
As far as I can see with the out campaign, their arguments focus on not having to pay EU memberships or other fees, no mention of what benefits we
will lose. There is also the delusion that we will be able to continue as normal, trading with the EU making our own deals, travel as freely, control
our own borders etc etc. That surely won't happen because, oh wait, that's the benefit of being part of the EU?!
As already mentioned, we can vote in or out, won't make a difference as the EU have the final vote. We just end up looking like a bunch of tits
who are playing grumpy teenager who doesn't want to live with their parents anymore. We won't be a world player, we won't have everyone
begging to trade with us, we won't sit on our shores with machine guns gunning down immigrants. We'd continue much the same but slowly be
crippled by our own hilarious belief we are the greatest country in the world.
I think the whole referendum is a joke with both sides neglecting facts, trying to manipulate and scare monger people into voting their way. There is
no evidence either side is going to lead to a brighter or gloomier future, its all calculations based on assumptions. Maybe we should stop trying to
do our own thing and begin working together. We all advanced from tribal wars and became a nation, from there we became the EU, why take a step
backwards, I don't think it would achieve anything...
quote:
I'm firmly in the remain side. It is the only side with evidence that can be even the slightest bit tangible. We can make forecasts based on previous years of EU membership. It still is a complete unknown but at least we won't end up going belly up whilst our neighbours continue to develop and grow.
As far as I can see with the out campaign, their arguments focus on not having to pay EU memberships or other fees, no mention of what benefits we will lose. There is also the delusion that we will be able to continue as normal, trading with the EU making our own deals, travel as freely, control our own borders etc etc. That surely won't happen because, oh wait, that's the benefit of being part of the EU?!
As already mentioned, we can vote in or out, won't make a difference as the EU have the final vote. We just end up looking like a bunch of tits who are playing grumpy teenager who doesn't want to live with their parents anymore. We won't be a world player, we won't have everyone begging to trade with us, we won't sit on our shores with machine guns gunning down immigrants. We'd continue much the same but slowly be crippled by our own hilarious belief we are the greatest country in the world.
I think the whole referendum is a joke with both sides neglecting facts, trying to manipulate and scare monger people into voting their way. There is no evidence either side is going to lead to a brighter or gloomier future, its all calculations based on assumptions. Maybe we should stop trying to do our own thing and begin working together. We all advanced from tribal wars and became a nation, from there we became the EU, why take a step backwards, I don't think it would achieve anything...
quote:
Originally posted by WallerZero
Maybe we should stop trying to do our own thing and begin working together. We all advanced from tribal wars and became a nation, from there we became the EU, why take a step backwards, I don't think it would achieve anything...
quote:
Originally posted by SJ
No individual country denies this to be true for their territory yet the individual governments of the respective countries keep telling us this isn't going to happen. Fact is massive amounts of funding should be shifted, for example, from Germany to Greece. However the German people wouldn't accept it.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by SJ
No individual country denies this to be true for their territory yet the individual governments of the respective countries keep telling us this isn't going to happen. Fact is massive amounts of funding should be shifted, for example, from Germany to Greece. However the German people wouldn't accept it.
Softly, softly, catchee monkey!
This is the purpose of subsidies and development grants, to bring economies closer into line gradually, without making the richer areas feel as though they've been suddenly pauperised.
It takes longer, but it does work.
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
The rest of the world (not just Europe) doesn't much like us because we're arrogant and isolationist.
Your answer to Europe not liking us is to turn our back on them still further.
eu just got to big and getting bigger , waiting for accessions are turkey ,Albania,Macedonia ,Montenegro,Serbia, no thanks ,hope the out vote wins
quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
The rest of the world (not just Europe) doesn't much like us because we're arrogant and isolationist.
Your answer to Europe not liking us is to turn our back on them still further.
Strange that statement does not match my experiences is it like 87.34% of all statistics? - made up on the spot!
I have always been extremely welcomed in the countries I have visited, France and Italy are naturally hospitable providing you make the effort ( just like Britain) and China treats Brits like royalty in my experience! Are you sure you aren't talking about the states?
As for the vote I'm out despite liking our neighbors simply because I have more confidence in me and my country's (Britain's) abilities. We do not need to cling onto the EU coat-tails we can trade on equal terms not rejecting them but respecting them as we wish to be respected.
If we remain in the EU we become involved in EU politics and that's where it gets messy as individual's and countries have "issues" and axes to grind. So the best solution is not sought but the best compromise. If we are out we can choose the solution which is best for us not for a minority interest in a country far from our shores.
Having said that if we could play the game as well as France we would be better off in the short term but then our national psyche would change and we would become different and in my opinion less.
I like the way I am, I'm grateful to this island country which has enabled me to build my self up from not a lot to quite comfortable enjoying every moment of the journey and being able to spread my good luck in passing. I have never experienced the problems of class and envy some posters allude to and I attribute this to a British upbringing in Scotland.
Interesting times.
Cheers!
quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
I think it is "Britain" that other countries dislike. We seem to believe we are more important than perhaps we actually are, a hangover from when we were the dominant world power a few hundred years ago. Things have changed....
) quote:
Originally posted by v8kid...we are still a world power 5th largest economy isn't it? Sure the mix has changed from manufacture to service/knowledge but we are still a power to be reckoned with ...
In all our trades only 10% deal in the eu so no big deal there, yet all off us have have to abide by their rules sorry ,after double
checking it actually says exports to the eu only account for 10% of our economy
[Edited on 4/5/16 by jtskips]
quote:
Originally posted by jtskips
In all our trades only 10% deal in the eu so no big deal there...
quote:
Originally posted by jtskips
In all our trades only 10% deal in the eu so no big deal there, yet all of us have have to abide by their rules ,
Where do you get that figure from? It's nonsense.
Roughly half our trade (about 45% of exports and 54% of imports) is with the EU.
quote:
Originally posted by jtskips
sorry , i was hoping it was that but in fact it says export to the eu only account for 10% of our economy ,
I dont care if the cucumbers cannot have a radius of more 10 degrees or that the dolly birds serving in gastro pubs are from poland or latvia but what
i want answers to is will i be better or worse off financially?
It may sound selfish but im hoping to give up work in the next 10 or less years, possibly emigrate to cyprus, so dont want my property or saving
going down the pan.
I qilk be voting for wgichever ootuon us better dir me but really dont know which one itll be.
[Edited on 4/5/16 by 02GF74]
For most people this argument comes down to
1) is the grass greener on the other side
2) are you scared of change
add in some vaguely veiled xenophobia and we're ready to vote
I live in London so I very much doubt the culture could be more heterogeneous. And seeing as I don't like change..... I'm in..... Trouble is
this isn't based upon logical fact on the principle that the people that shout the loudest are the people who are most biased so to get an
unbiased view you have to listen to the person saying nothing. Which doesn't exactly help.
So basically the entire population of the UK gets their patella reflex (knee jerk reaction) tested.
Great basis on which to make an important decision.....
quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
I dont care if the cucumbers cannot have a radius of more 10 degrees or that the dolly birds serving in gastro pubs are from poland or latvia but what i want answers to is will i be better or worse off financially?
quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
I dont care if the cucumbers cannot have a radius of more 10 degrees...
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
Given that all the fancy numbers prove that a large proportion of our trade is with the EU, and it's logical to assume that our trading terms with the rest of Europe will be much worse if we leave, and that the UK economy will therefore be up a certain creek without a paddle, the answer to that one is fairly simple, surely?
Bendy cucumbers are not a myrh, but the rules have been relaxed.
According to European Commission Regulation No. 1277/88, if a cucumber bends more than 10 millimeters per 10 centimeters (0.4 inches per 4 inches) in
length, it cannot be categorized as "class one" and may therefore only be sold as a second-rate cucumber. But who wants to buy one of those?
Most second-rate cucumbers -- at least according to conventional wisdom -- never make it to market
They would end up in salads. If we're growing so much that seconds just get thrown away, then that's another issue entirely.
quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
Thats the bit i dont get. We buy from china, japan, usa and none of those are in eu.
Stay or leave, it doesn't really matter as it will be just us normal folk who have to deal with the consequences (either way), some will gain but
more will loose, as is the way of things.
One thing is certain, the rich want to and will get richer and the poor just want to survive, eat and have shelter.
quote:
Given that all the fancy numbers prove that a large proportion of our trade is with the EU, and it's logical to assume that our trading terms with the rest of Europe will be much worse if we leave, and that the UK economy will therefore be up a certain creek without a paddle, the answer to that one is fairly simple, surely?
I must confess, I don't get why people are so opposed to migration. I actually couldn't care less if someone from the continent wants to come and work in the uk. The idea that someone is going to come here to claim £60 's week jsa is ludicrous.
quote:
I must confess, I don't get why people are so opposed to migration. I actually couldn't care less if someone from the continent wants to come and work in the uk. The idea that someone is going to come here to claim £60 's week jsa is ludicrous.
quote:.
Originally posted by JoelP
I must confess, I don't get why people are so opposed to migration.
quote:
Getting my crystal ball out I think there are two ways this will play out.
1. We vote to stay so no change.
2. We vote to leave. Cameron will resign. Boris will become PM and as he has suggested the EU will then negotiate for us to stay, which hasn't really happened so far. We will secure some proper opt out on free movement of people, benefits and political union and then have a second referendum and vote to stay in.
In my view scenario 2 would be the best outcome.
I think there are too many vested interests to allow an actual Brexit as it could herald the end of the EU. By contrast some different terms for the UK, particularly on immigration and being able to differentiate between and benefits for UK and non UK citizens [which are the main issues for most people] will seem like small beer to the Eurocrats.
I could be wrong though.
The trouble with unrestricted EU migration is that the huge disparities between job opportunities, incomes and cost of living between countries leads
to some from the "poorer" countries to come here in large numbers, many to live in shared accommodation to minimise cost, stay for some
years to build up a nest-egg and then return home. They are then taking jobs that UK citizens could take, but at wages that are too low for someone
who intends to live their whole life here. They are also exporting a large part of the money they earn.
There is also the problem of sheer numbers. We cannot have a net positive immigration figure indefinitely, there is already a lack of housing, school
places, GP surgeries, even road space. Our personal experience is that our eldest son started school in a class of 23, at a school that my wife had
attended, attached to the church that she has attended all her life, where her parents also went to church, where we were married, where our children
were baptised, yet by the time his brother reached school age, 3 years later, there were 56 applicants for only 26 places and as we are 75 yards
outside the catchment area (although the school is easier to get to than our "closest" he was not given a place - meanwhile the playground
had become full of parents speaking foreign languages and there was no longer any parking as many of the big houses opposite the school and nearby had
been converted to multiple flats.
I am not against immigration, just the unlimited nature of it. I work in engineering and we are short of engineers, so it makes perfect sense to
"import" them in the short term (despite them competing with me for jobs), but we should be funding training of more of our own engineers.
Similarly, it is a scandal that we are importing so many nurses and doctors, leaving some poorer countries short (and having paid to train them) and
leaving some of our own hopefuls unable to get on courses, when some years ago the government here cut the number of training places!
If all the EU countries were at a similar level, immigration would both be lower and would average out to pretty well a net zero, but as this is not
the case, remaining in the EU will mean continued mass immigration.
I have not yet made up my mind whether to vote in or out, but the above elephant in the room is not being addressed by the EU and is certainly a large
part of the exit side of my decision.
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
Also, when negotiating sales deals with those non-EU economies, being part of the massive economy of the EU allows us to negotiate much better terms.
As much as I abhor his clumsiness, that's what Obama has just pointed out in no uncertain terms: if we leave the EU it will take years to negotiate new trade deals with the USA (and China, and Japan). The end results are unlikely to be as favourable as the deals we can negotiate as part of Europe
quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
Well im totally ignorant in this area but why is there a need to negotiate any deal?
quote:
There are currently no import duties between European countries
That has nothing to do with import duty. That is about tax avoidance.
If you import fags, sell them and pay the relevant duty it is OK. Selling them on a street corner and defrauding HMRC isn't.
And that is down to the tax regime, we have lowish income tax, but that is made up by duty on other stuff. Much of europe has MUCH higher income tax,
but less duty on beer and fags. That system would be hopeless here, imagine what would happen if alcohol and fags dropped to 1/3rd current price, and
workers had to pay 50% income tax.... about right for many of our neighbours.
[Edited on 5/5/16 by cliftyhanger]
quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
That has nothing to do with import duty. That is about tax avoidance.
quote:
quote: Originally posted by cliftyhanger That has nothing to do with import duty. That is about tax avoidance. Quite. That's about our own internal taxes and duties. If you produce a bottle of Scotch in Speyside, or a can of lager in Burton on Trent, you must pay alcohol duty on it just the same as if you import it from Europe. Ditto tobacco products
quote:
Originally posted by SJ
...if we stay in we need to ask if we are we prepared to go that far...
Thanks for the edit!
I think you are being naive if you believe those concessions won't be reviewed in future.
I think you are being naive if you believe those concessions won't be reviewed in future.
quote:
I think you are being naive if you believe those concessions won't be reviewed in future. They may well be: and what's wrong with that? There may come a time when the UK populace and Government decide that it's actually in their best interest to participate in closer monetary union. But they can only be changed if we agree to it: the current arrangement will be legally binding upon the EU. I think you are being paranoid if you believe tinfoil-hat speculation.
quote:
Originally posted by SJ
I'm not saying that if we vote in we will definitely get the euro, single government and European army etc. but going in that direction is what we are voting for if we vote to stay in.
quote:
quote: Originally posted by SJ I'm not saying that if we vote in we will definitely get the euro, single government and European army etc. but going in that direction is what we are voting for if we vote to stay in. No it's not. We are voting to remain in the Union in its current, legally agreed form. Any future changes in either direction (and there is nothing stopping us negotiating further 'concessions' if we wish to further distance ourselves from certain policies), are a separate matter.
quote:
Originally posted by SJ
Experience suggests that you might be wrong..
I'm broadly in favour of voting remain, but think everyone if polled should say they are backing the out campaign, that way the goverment can bribe us (as they did with the Scots). That way I could buy my cigarettes and alcohol from the cheapest places in the EU and have them delivered as my friends in Europe do. The big problem I have with the EU isn't unwarranted interference by unelected officials, but our elected government constants commitment to deny the benefits of membership at an individual level. If it's 'good for business' they accept any EU move. Should it be good for you and I they don't. As to immigration we've let more non EU citizens in anyway, were the only country to allow migrants in from new accession countries from day one so I can't see leaving would result in a sea change there. On the positives for leaving though, it would stop our Government from hiding behind their oft used and frequently often incorrect excuse ' we can't help it it's the EU's fault'. One thing I can't understand in the campaign at present is the will we, won't we be able to make trade deals, if we make/provide something others need they will deal with us regardless of deals as it is in their interest to. If we haven't anything they want a trade deal won't encourage trade !
I'm for voting out and will do so, it doesn't matter how many times anybody posts the same old guff about the benefits of staying in, I
didn't want to join in the first place, and I wasn't old enough to vote at the time.
It makes me laugh that some people keep posting " there facts" in a vain hope of changing some one else's mind, it won't! This is
politics my friends, YOU will never know the real truth about what will happen if we leave until it happens.
Shooter
quote:
Originally posted by Shooter63
This is politics my friends...
Nice video here on Brexit Linky
The other reason for voting to remain is if you want big reforms in the benefit system and NHS. Many other EU countries have contributory based systems which work better with open borders. Ours really struggle with open borders. I'm convinced one of the reasons Cameron wants to remain is that he thinks it is a way to reform both of the above in the UK without him getting the blame.
Out for me!
I don't like all the scaremongering that's been going on
also Obama sticking his nose in when he's only interetsted in his gains of us staying in. also microsoft, it's all about the big companys
that are worried, they don't care about the little man!
Anyone else also notice how the bbc seems to be very pro stay, where's the news about the syrian refgees have they all vanished!
Wasn't there a riot at calias recently but it wasn't show on the bbc?
but sadly even if we all vote to leave the vote will be rigged
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by Shooter63
This is politics my friends...
Actually, the important stuff is economics, which is a damned sight easier to predict and model.
It really doesn't take a genius to work out that our economy will take a serious hit if we leave the EU.
I see that the Japanese Prime Minister has now come out and warned of the consequences.
That's our own PM, and two out of the three most important non-EU nations that have warned of adverse consequences.
It's a pity that some people are just so blind reactionary that they'll never even think about allowing common sense to prevail.
I hope you'll still be feeling proud of yourself when Nissan, Honda and JLR pull out of the UK and you have to look the people who relied on them for their living in the face.
Just spent some time googling to top 20 businessmen and women in the UK and their thoughts on BREXIT. Turns out they can't agree. What hope has the common man got of making the correct decision if these people can't agree.
I'm still unsure... but the biased reporting is starting to wind me up. I found this on YouTube - it's extremely one-sided (pro-exit) but
aspects of what they report are quite shocking...
Note: it's an hour long, and some bits in the middle are exceptionally stupid and amateurish (the play-acting) but other parts are ...
interesting.
Don't take it as "The Truth", nor should you think that this is my opinion, but it's the most detailed presentation I've seen
so far.
I don't agree it is about economics. The first decision should a political one i.e do we want to be part of a larger country called the EU or not. Politically there are positives and negatives to staying or leaving, but either way the economics will sort themselves out in the medium to long term as long as we are a productive nation.
I'm no fan of the scaremongering and extreme spin that both sides are using at the moment, but I can see that many in the out campaign seem to be
basing their decision on a point of principle about controlling our own destiny.
What I would really like someone to explain to me however is why so many business leaders and institutions want us to stay in if its really as bad for
us as the out campaign would have us believe. What's in it for them? I have a hard time believing that they can all be David Icke style alien
lizards bent on world domination.
The economic argument for remaining is a red herring. we are the largest financial centre globally and roughly 80% of our exports are financial
services not physical goods as some imagine when discussing 'exports'
There are no other EU countries even close to the top ten, the EU and the world need the UK's services.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_centre
The other key point to this referendum to me personally is immigration; we are having to turn away and even deport highly skilled non EU citizens due
to them not earning 35k+ per year to meet immigration targets whereas the flow of unskilled labour is unchecked as our hands are tied.
This only serves to drive down wages and help big business keep their costs down, hence the of large multinationals putting forward their cases to
remain, even threatening to pull out of the UK if we choose to leave.
Again this argument is flawed when you look at the investment of the likes of Honda and Nissan where between them have invested over 300 million
pounds in the last year even though they new a referendum on the EU and a possible exit was on the cards.
quote:
Originally posted by Irony
Your right this is about economics not politics. So why then does it matter what Obama or the Jap PM says. They are concerned about stability of the world economy and their own economies... Who is the most powerful businessman in the UK and what do he and his ilk have to say?
And I have just heard on the radio that the leave campaign is (surprise surprise) going to concentrate on immigration as its main point as other
arguments don't seem to be making progress.
The politics of fear, hatred and blame really are rather low.
Must say the stay campaign is also based on fear, but is swerving hatred and blame.
I still want EU reform and to stay. But I am convinced it is either/or and we won't get both.
Best result will be if we vote to leave, and the EU does a mega deal/shakeup and changes enough that we have to re-vote. Pigs might fly.
However, with the growing surge in far right politics across the EU, the next few years could get exciting. But I doubt in a good way. I like politics
to be almost un-noticed, just smoothly moving along. But just like a nasty boil, pressure is growing and at some point it will need lancing. Messy for
a while, but will quicly heal. However, I am non too keen on us being the ones left with the mess to clear up.
quote:
Originally posted by james-w
The economic argument for remaining is a red herring. we are the largest financial centre globally and roughly 80% of our exports are financial services not physical goods as some imagine when discussing 'exports'
There are no other EU countries even close to the top ten, the EU and the world need the UK's services.
quote:
Originally posted by richardm6994
The government have done this referendum because if we vote to stay, then they have the justification why we've not left the EU whenever the topic arises in the future. If we vote to leave, then the EU will probably just block the exit and the government can sit back and put on a sorry face and say 'we tried to leave but it's not our fault we're having to stay'
At the end of the day, we'll not be leaving the EU because either the referendum will finish with a 'stay' result or alternatively the EU and its members will simply block us from leaving by not approving (or dragging out beyond reason) the severance agreement.
quote:
I'm not from a 'political' persuasion, I'm a disenfranchised aging cynic. The whole system just reeks of corruption, UK and EU alike. Our Elite make noises to placate us, while they fill their boots with disregard. Hell, Bliar was looked at a 'Socialist' by the sheeple, while he waged war, invaded sovereign countries, created the PFI legacy, opened our borders and satisfied his personal greed. Scameron is no better, these are the Elite.
quote:
Originally posted by SteveWallace
quote:
Originally posted by james-w
The economic argument for remaining is a red herring. we are the largest financial centre globally and roughly 80% of our exports are financial services not physical goods as some imagine when discussing 'exports'
There are no other EU countries even close to the top ten, the EU and the world need the UK's services.
That's my point. If it is really a big red herring, why are so many of those business apparently so keen on us staying in and why are so many financial institutions saying that we will take a hit?
I don't understand why they are all so keen on telling us that everything will go t*$s up if we leave, yet I also know that they are deliberately using worst case scenario's in their analysis to make their point. What's in it for them that the rest of us shouldn't like, because if its profits and jobs, we should all be worried as well.
I'm a relatively well informed punter, I'm working on a collaborative project that's funded by the EU, and I'm currently wavering one way and then the other. With all the spin and counter spin, I have no idea how your average Joe couch potato is supposed to make an informed decision.
What I don't like about the EU:
I) stupid regulations that don't work for us that we have to live with
ii) lack of control of our borders
iii) drive towards federalism
iv) Accession of countries that really shouldn't be joining
What I like:
I) Good regulation (much of the environmental legislation, workers rights etc)
ii) Being inside of a larger trading block (which is what the EEC started out as being)
iii) EU investment into deprived areas of our country that successive UK governments would have ignored even if they had been saving the EU membership fees
iv) Freedom of movement in the job market
quote:
Originally posted by james-w
Longer term however I think the UK economy will be able to grow beyond where it is currently once it is free of the EU restrictions on trade where all 28 member states have to agree. There are issues currently with the Canada-EU trade....
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by james-w
Longer term however I think the UK economy will be able to grow beyond where it is currently once it is free of the EU restrictions on trade where all 28 member states have to agree. There are issues currently with the Canada-EU trade....
What makes you believe that? Europe is our biggest trading partner. Canada barely registers.
Destroying the relationship with one in the spurious hope of easing the relationship with the other (the problems on which will doubtless have been ironed out long before we could leave the EU, anyway) seems nothing short of insane.
Common sense suggests that we have much greater ease of trading with the EU (our biggest trade partner by far, remember) if we are actually part of it, and the size of the EU means that it will ultimately stand a much better chance of negotiating favourable trading terms with non-EU economies than we would in isolation.
I've yet to see any credible business authority who believes we will be better off out of Europe. The arguments seem to centre around the degree to which we will be worse off.
quote:
Originally posted by james-w
UK exports with the EU has been falling year on year for the past 15 years...
Due to the dwindling exports to the EU and rising exports to the rest of the world our future lies outside the EU.
Just for clarity, John Major started the PFI scam. Blair was just the neoliberal sellout who perpetuated it. Cameron is also at it, because Hinckley Point is essentially the same.
quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
Just for clarity, John Major started the PFI scam. Blair was just the neoliberal sellout who perpetuated it. Cameron is also at it, because Hinckley Point is essentially the same.
Worth a watch and a laugh, at switzerland trade 5x more than us because they are much closer lol
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri46n4XA5TM[/youtube]
[Edited on 25/5/16 by Johneturbo]
quote:
Originally posted by motorcycle_mayhem
quote:
[i It's iginally posted by JoelP
Just for clarity, John Major started the PFI scam. Blair was just the neoliberal sellout, lout who perpetuated it. Cameron is also at it, because sure ckley Point is essentially the same.
Hinckley Point is frightening! Overseas corrupt money to build it, with us paying a premium for thshould e output, all guaranteed filled, lovely.
I was a very natural EU sceptic but the 'Leave' campaign has been incredibly weak and the 'Remain' campaign has a lot of very
credible supporters, many of whom are ostensibly independent. I am still undecided but I honestly struggle to see any reason to support an
'OUT' vote at this time. Having gone through the Scottish independence referendum and seen how divisive that has been, and continues to be,
my greatest hope is that the same thing doesn't happen with this one.
Whatever your personal views, the economy is hurt badly by any sort of 'uncertainty' and there can be no greater uncertainty than an exit
from the EU. This will undoubtedly (IMHO) cause short term pain for the UK in the event of an exit. The only question for me really is whether the mid
to long term outcome will be favourable or not. So far the 'Leave' campaign has done nothing to convince me of that.
Oh, and I'd have to say that Boris's 'Nazi' comments severely lost him and the 'Leave' campaign credibility in my eyes.
I actually had a lot of respect for Boris despite his quirks up until that point. It is a sign of desparation in my opinion.
The Scottish indeyref was 55/45 in favour of staying in. I believe the EURef will be more like 65/35 in favour of staying in which at this point is
about right. If this is to change then 'Remain' need to stop the scare stories and replace that with compelling facts, and the
'Leave' campaign need to start finding some credible supporters and stop relying on the emotional "independence" vote which failed
so badly in Scotland (thankfully). I suspect I'm not alone at being undecided and also being thirsty for facts but the simple fact is that nobody
really knows what would happen if we left the EU.
Look at it this way. If you were dealt two pairs in a poker hand and were offered a brand new hand. Would you take it or would you hope to assemble a
full house from what you have? That's where we are right now!
[Edited on 25/5/2016 by craig1410]
Here's a good fact - our contribution to the eu works out at 26p each per day net, which is roughly the same per person as what Norway pays to access the single market.
Well at the moment i am remain they say it will take ten years to untangle i am 61 so think i should vote for whats good for my kids generation. Also the leave side havent come up with a creditable argument
The economic argument for remaining at least in the short term is very strong. It basically boils down to whether you are willing to withstand
potential short term economic pain for longer term gain, beyond this predictions are pretty pointless.
The 'Official' figures for 2015 have just been released and it puts migration greater than the population of Milton Keynes, how long is this
sustainable year on year and at what cost to our schools, housing and NHS.
quote:
Originally posted by james-w
The economic argument for remaining at least in the short term is very strong.
It basically boils down to whether you are willing to withstand potential short term economic pain for longer term gain..
I wonder why nobody is making the case for closer integration. As Sam says the economic theory arguments for removing barriers to trade are not in
dispute, so why not have more or it? There could be a lot of savings if we harmonised our social welfare systems, government, employment laws,
healthcare systems etc. Anyone fancy driving on the other side of the road? It would make all those rust free southern European Alfas more attractive!
Closer harmonisation has undeniably been the direction of travel so far so it seems surprising no one is saying how good more of the same could be.
[Edited on 26/5/16 by SJ]
quote:
Originally posted by SJ
Closer harmonisation has undeniably been the direction of travel so far so it seems surprising no one is saying how good more of the same could be.
most people i have met are voting out thank god,
Not really related to the Brexit debate, but this is an interesting video on immigration generally:
Link
The problem is scarily big.
I'm still voting leave. What I don't like is the unelected way the EU governs and imposes its whacky ideas on us.
Yesterday on BBC 4 there was a report of farmers being fined by the EU for having wonky hedges.....
What's next, lawn inspectors to check you mow regularly?????
quote:
What's next, lawn inspectors to check you mow regularly?????
quote:
Originally posted by coozerWhat I don't like is the unelected way the EU governs and imposes its whacky ideas on us.
I wonder if anybody on here knows who their euro MP is we elect them and send them to europe to act on our behalf that seems democatic to me if we had
taken more interest in the EU and taken part rather than sending a bunch of freeloaders and just whinging about it all the time we may have had more
influence.
The GT Britain people hark back to is no more the Americans took that off us before entering ww2 look it up historical fact.
We need to stop this sitting on the side lines whinging and get on with being part of Europe its our nearest land mass.
Every political leader sent to The EU for the last 40 years has been made a fool of Margret thatcher gave the most away again look it up historical
fact.
Winston Churchill our greatest Briton would have been sat at the top table telling the rest in Europe how its going to be
I am probs going to vote to stay just hope we can find some politicians with the balls to stand up for Britain.
MY advice to anybody who cannot decide dont listen to either side look up the facts for you self both sides are treating us like imbeciles.
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by coozerWhat I don't like is the unelected way the EU governs and imposes its whacky ideas on us.
What, you mean the unelected way they govern via all these elected MEP's and elected national Governments?
At least get a proper understanding of how the EU works before voting to commit financial suicide, instead of just taking the rabid rants of Daily Wail readers and the lunatic Farage Fringe at face value.
The 'wacky ideas' that are reported are almost always gross distortions that are concealing crucial information. Not to say that there aren't occasionally unintended consequences and glitches to be ironed out from complex legislation by any government, but the EU is no worse than anyone else.
quote:
Originally posted by james-w
The Unelected European Council propose all new laws, our MEP's only have the ability to propose amendments to them and mostly get outvoted.
The European Comission is made up of 28 Unelected members who cannot be held to account, if we don't like what they are doing we have no
vehicle with which to remove them.
The European council is made up of elected governments but the problem is the UK only has a veto to prevent EU laws impacting the UK in a very minor
number of areas. The European Council approves proposals by a voting process, they become EU law regardless if the UK want it or not, we have no opt
out.
The European Parliament is not a parliament as we know it here in the UK, it cannot propose laws only amend those proposed by the Unelected
comission and then needs final approval by the commission once ratified. Once a law is made, the elected parliament has no power to change this
law.
This not a democracy, it is run by the elite to serve the elite, information from a website run by the organisations isn't exactly a good source
of unbiased info
quote:
Originally posted by james-w
The European Comission is made up of 28 Unelected members who cannot be held to account, if we don't like what they are doing we have no vehicle with which to remove them.
quote:
Originally posted by james-w
...the problem is the UK only has a veto to prevent EU laws impacting the UK in a very minor number of areas.
quote:
Originally posted by james-w
The European Parliament is not a parliament as we know it here in the UK, it cannot propose laws only amend those proposed by the Unelected comission
quote:
Originally posted by james-w
This not a democracy
Quotes directly from the website you linked earlier.
The European Parliament may approve or reject a legislative proposal, or propose amendments to it. The Council is not legally obliged to take
account of Parliament's opinion but in line with the case-law of the Court of Justice, it must not take a decision without having received
it.
The commission can only be asked to propose new legislation by another EU institution but the vast majority or new legislation comes from
the commission.
The parliament cannot vote against an individual commissioner and requires at least 2/3rds of the parliament for a vote of no confidence in the
entire commission This would require 500 votes of which we only have 73.
Our interpretations of these points seem to differ.
This so called democracy does not work for the UK and history shows this, we have been on the receiving end of more lost votes in the parliament than
any other member state yet we are the third biggest in seats behind Germany and France.
quote:
Originally posted by james-w
This so called democracy does not work for the UK and history shows this, we have been on the receiving end of more lost votes in the parliament than any other member state yet we are the third biggest in seats behind Germany and France.
quote:
Before criticising European Democracy, perhaps you should take a closer look at our own...
quote:
Originally posted by SJ
quote:
Both are dire - that the House of Lords still exists amazes me!
I certainly wouldn't disagree with that: the best we have today - anywhere - is a clumsy pastiche of true democracy. The closest we got to that was in ancient Greece, where the debate and vote on each and every individual issue was open to everyone (so long as you were male, free, and of sufficient age and status, anyway!).
Logistics prevented this as societies grew in scale. We do now have the technology to return to it, but we apparently lack the will.
In the meanwhile, the best we can do is accept that there will be certain limitations with any democratic system, and concentrate on a society that will generate the best economy, and thereby the best chance of improving the underlying political system in the future.
The answer still remains in Europe, for the present: it's the forward-looking option, whereas the 'out' campaign is reactionary to its core.
woodster - 29/5/16 at 10:59 PMI'm voting out despite the in campaign telling me there's a good chance my knob will drop off if I vote to leave the eu
[Edited on 29/5/16 by woodster]
mark chandler - 30/5/16 at 07:12 AMquote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by SJ
quote:
Both are dire - that the House of Lords still exists amazes me!
I certainly wouldn't disagree with that: the best we have today - anywhere - is a clumsy pastiche of true democracy. The closest we got to that was in ancient Greece, where the debate and vote on each and every individual issue was open to everyone (so long as you were male, free, and of sufficient age and status, anyway!).
Logistics prevented this as societies grew in scale. We do now have the technology to return to it, but we apparently lack the will.
In the meanwhile, the best we can do is accept that there will be certain limitations with any democratic system, and concentrate on a society that will generate the best economy, and thereby the best chance of improving the underlying political system in the future.
The answer still remains in Europe, for the present: it's the forward-looking option, whereas the 'out' campaign is reactionary to its core.
Everyone voting for everything? Madness, even if you do not like politicians you need paid people who are enthusiastic about what they do or you would end up with the fringes running the country when they feel like it, that concept is doomed.
Personally I like first past the post, you get clear majorities which drives change, by forcing general elections everyone gets a chance to vote anyway.
House of Lords, it looks pretty rubbish on the outside but.... You have some very very clever people in their who provide a check and balance on the voted parliament who's guidance would be badly missed.
Back on subject, everyone in the country of voting age gets a shout at the EU question, I,m still out. They keep complaining about the £350 million a week going out as being incorrect, the money that comes back is tainted as it is being spent on us no-longer controlled by us so dismiss that argument, who gets to decide where it is spent?
If coming out suppresses house prices good, at least my daughter may be able to buy something and get out of shared ownership, last time I looked England was still in the same place on a map.
You just have to look at the recent French strikes to see what's going wrong elsewhere.
Sam_68 - 30/5/16 at 07:53 AMquote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
Everyone voting for everything? Madness, even if you do not like politicians you need paid people who are enthusiastic about what they do or you would end up with the fringes running the country when they feel like it, that concept is doomed.
Personally I like first past the post, you get clear majorities which drives change, by forcing general elections everyone gets a chance to vote anyway.
You're assuming party politics, and therefore that you have someone, or some party or group, running things. In a true democracy, you have a civil service to implement decisions, but following the will of the electorate - each and every one of them, equally.
Whether you approve of it or not, any party political system is not a democracy, it's an oligarchy. Different thing entirely.
quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
If coming out suppresses house prices good, at least my daughter may be able to buy something and get out of shared ownership, last time I looked England was still in the same place on a map.
Some eejit on another forum rubbished the house price thing because he couldn't understand - if the demand was still there, and the developers were saying they would scale back construction in the event of Brexit - how the law of supply and demand would allow house prices to fall.
For the answer, you only need to look back to 2008. It's amazing how short people's memories are, isn't it?
You understand the concept of a recession, presumably?
The reason that it is predicted that house prices will be suppressed is because we'll enter a recession, so nobody will have the money, or the confidence in their employment, or the ability to borrow money, to be able to buy.
Lower house prices won't help your daughter, if they're in the middle of a depressed economy.
mark chandler - 30/5/16 at 08:04 AMI have no concerns about my daughter or her fiancé,s ability to find a job, recession or no recession they both WANT to work! A recession will not really affect their ability to borrow. Over the last few years that have chopped and changed jobs while they find something they like.
House pricing pushes them out the market hence shared ownership today, when your earning £20k and a single bed flat is £180k something is wrong.
[Edited on 30/5/16 by mark chandler]
Sam_68 - 30/5/16 at 08:12 AMquote:.
Originally posted by mark chandlerA recession will not really affect their ability to borrow.
Really??
You were obviously taking a vacation from Planet Earth from 2008 to about 2012, then?
And stable employment history would be one of the major criteria for borrowing.
mark chandler - 30/5/16 at 01:14 PMWith a decent deposit and good credit history you have always been able to borrow, all that's changed recently is the 80's madness where 105% mortgages are starting to appear again and 5 x your wage is possible !!!
Driven by high house prices, low inflation and greed, the sensible days of affordability have gone. I had a letter from my bank the other day offering a remortgage taking my pension into account, would I like to borrow until I am 85 years old.... No thanks
A bit of instability may actually do us some good.
Sam_68 - 30/5/16 at 01:35 PMquote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
A bit of instability may actually do us some good.
Again... really??
Are you being serious?!
I can't believe that you are so fixated on Brexit that you are genuinely trying to convince yourself that economic instability would be a benefit!
mark chandler - 30/5/16 at 02:50 PMSomething needs to change, it's a bureaucratic mess that needs shaking up which will never happen if everyone remains complacent it will remain as is.
Agreed there is not a convincing argument to leave, but then again there is not one to stay either. Cameron failed to deliver on his promise to protect us 2 months ago, it's a failed experiment that will never deliver what we need in its current state or direction. UK alone cannot do anything about this.
I'm not scared of change, there are many benefits.
Sam_68 - 30/5/16 at 03:17 PMquote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
Something needs to change, it's a bureaucratic mess that needs shaking up which will never happen if everyone remains complacent it will remain as is.
You need to stop being so insular and pay attention to what is happening in the rest of Europe: other member states are far from being complacent.
Everybody recognises that it can be developed and improved, but thus far the UK has been one of the main obstructions. As I've said before, maybe if we get with the programme and start working with Europe instead of trying to fight against it all the time, it will serve us better.
quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
...there is not one to stay either.
Yes there is.
Even the most rabid 'outers' (except the ones who think that a nice, deep recession would do us a power of good
That we are economically better off in Europe is pretty much beyond dispute.
mark chandler - 30/5/16 at 06:20 PMBut it's not just about money is it?
You need to stop being so insular and pay attention to what is happening in the rest of Europe: other member states are far from being complacent.
You mean erecting fences, guarding borders etc? Or maybe the Germans now owning Greece financially. It's not so rosy in, we maybe the vanguard.
More about taking back control.
[Edited on 30/5/16 by mark chandler]
Sam_68 - 30/5/16 at 07:15 PMquote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
But it's not just about money is it?
Possibly not, but you said there were no good reasons to stay. So you don't think that economic prosperity and stability is a good reason?
quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
More about taking back control.
Well, that's where we differ:
1) Whichever way it goes, I'm not foolish enough to think that the ability to cast a vote for one of two (credible) parties, each composed of a clique of corrupt, self-interested career politicians once every 4 years or so gives me any sort of control.
2) I happen to believe that we stand a better chance of keeping the aforesaid corrupt, self-interested career politicians in check if they are accountable to some degree to a higher law-making body and other nations, in the form of the EU.
3) Given that I'm not stupid enough to think that I have any real influence, I'd rather be affluent, able to move and trade freely throughout Europe, and be dictated to by a bunch of cocksockets than be poor, more restricted in my trade and movements, subject to the laws of a government that thinks it's in my best interest and personal freedom to opt out of basic human rights legislation, and still be dictated to by a bunch of cocksockets.
So from my perspective, it seems to boil down to the fact that you prefer to have your life run for you by English speaking, Eton-and-Oxbridge educated cocksockets, because they're 'us' and anyone else is 'them'?
mark chandler - 30/5/16 at 07:19 PMEton, Oxford, Cambridge whatever is for me better than a greedy European
Sam_68 - 30/5/16 at 07:27 PMquote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
Eton, Oxford, Cambridge whatever is for me better than a greedy European
Well, as I said, for you it seems to come down to 'them' being 'foreigners'.
If you think 'our' politicians are any less greedy or corrupt, you need to ask yourself which national leader has just been exposed for benefiting from offshore bank accounts whilst trying to criticise others for the same thing.
If the best reason you can think of to part from the EU is nationalist bigotry, then I feel sorry for you.
mark chandler - 30/5/16 at 08:26 PMNo need to feel sorry for me, I'm not a nationalist bigot far from it so you have unsurprisingly jumped at that conclusion as anything against your mantra gets the same treatment eventually.
He was educated at Eton, his parents were successful so of course he benefited it's inescapable, not all conservatives have the same background but then some labour do as well.
Ah well, this has run its course.
Sam_68 - 30/5/16 at 09:07 PMquote:
Originally posted by mark chandlerI'm not a nationalist bigot far from it so you have unsurprisingly jumped at that conclusion ...
I agree, it's unsurprising.
Sorry, but what other other conclusion can I jump to, when the only and best reason you can give for wishing to leave the EU is to openly state that you prefer to be governed by any English politicians, no matter what their background or politics, in preference to Europe?
You cannot accuse me of quoting you out of context: that was your whole post, in its entirety.
bi22le - 30/5/16 at 11:00 PMI am an outer at the moment but not confident.
My biggest worry is that Westminster is not strong and robust. Too much inner party fighting and the shadow party should be pushing and questioning the elected, but they are laughing stock.
If the Tories were inited, DC had more time to run and Labour actually did what shadow parties should be doing. Then i would be more confident.
The bottom line is that the EU want and are different to us. So short term will be tough, longterm we will regret it if we don't leave.
mark chandler - 31/5/16 at 06:34 AMWe will never agree on a number of things them Sam.
1. We are not governed by a bunch of 'cocksockets' they are professional people who have decided to make a living from politics, mostly very clever people with difficult jobs.
2. In the main I believe they will always do what is best for this country, this may also align with what's best for them but is that so bad? What counts is the out come
3. I get the chance to vote them in, they are not then imposed upon me
4. I do not believe other countries will vote for the common good in the European Union, they will vote for what is best for them, Know one then get the best outcome
5. Great Britain is on balance an honourable country and does look after human rights etc, and we also do what we preach, can you say the same thing about all other EU member states? Why do you think their people are trying to get here?
6. Do you honestly believe we will ever get free trade, the day will never come when 1 Euro will get you the same item at the same price in any EU country, it will never ever happen
7. Do you believe all other countries enforce the EU laws as closely as the Uk, on paper maybe but not in practice.
If that makes me a nationalist bigot so be it in your eyes, along with I sincerely hope the +50% who want to leave.
[Edited on 31/5/16 by mark chandler]
Sam_68 - 31/5/16 at 06:47 AMquote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
We will never agree on a number of things them Sam.
Well, we agree there, at least!
And thank you for the comedy, especially on your points 1, 2, 3 and 5.
I do like to start the morning with a good giggle!