britishtrident
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| posted on 15/3/11 at 08:42 AM |
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The Elephant in the room: The Japanese Reactor Thread
08:00 15/3/11 News is not good from Japan and is getting worse , clearly they never anticipated the emergency cooling systems would have to run for
days/weeks/months and didn't give them enough hardening to survive a Tsunnami.
One cannot help but feel for the plant engineers who will be doing their best under circumstances of extreme personal danger and many of the staff
will have lost their families in the disaster.
If one good thing comes out of this tragic mess it will be to put gas cooled reactors back on to the agenda.
[Edited on 15/3/11 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 15/3/11 at 08:44 AM |
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You might find this interesting reading:
The Register
A different viewpoint, away from the shrieking headlines...
Note: it's slightly out of date now, but the main analysis is worth reading.
[Edited on 15/3/11 by David Jenkins]
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deezee
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| posted on 15/3/11 at 08:57 AM |
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Some very interesting reading Dave. Far from the drama of the media, giving the impression that a Japanese Chernobyl is minutes away.
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cliftyhanger
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| posted on 15/3/11 at 09:01 AM |
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I think the big worry is that the anti nuclear bunch are going to capitalise on the news and try to stop new nuclear stations in this country and else
where.
The same people who don't want wind farms near their homes or tidal schemes in their rivers, or indeed wave schemes off the coast where they
sail their yachts. And coal is a def no no.
Sorry, nimby rant over. Nuclear is needed, and we have little choice.
And yes, I do feel for the Japanese workers. I suspect they will do their job no matter what.
BTW the link makes an interesting read. Seems that however we prepare for nature, we can still get caught out
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balidey
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| posted on 15/3/11 at 09:03 AM |
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Its all very worrying, but personally I think the reactors have stood up incredibly well. Strongest earth quake recorded in over 100 years, massive
tsunami, hourly aftershocks that are severe in their own right and (if what we are led to believe is true) no actual melt down yet. And its over 40
year old technology. I personally think its held up better than if this had happened in some other developing countries.
If anything we want to be copying their current design and making slight improvements. Not putting the whole nuclear debate back 50 years.
Obviously if it all goes mushroom shaped later in the week I will eat my words. But so far I have huge respect for the Japanese and how well the
nation is coping. Although I am only keeping tabs on the BBC reports which seems to be more level headed.
ETA: just read that link, pretty much agree with most of that. I'm not Pro or Anti nuclear fuel, just don't use this as an argument for
the Anti brigade.
Did we all stop driving cars after the BP oil spill? No we bloody well did not
[Edited on 15/3/11 by balidey]
Dutch bears have terrible skin due to their clogged paws
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balidey
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| posted on 15/3/11 at 09:21 AM |
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Probably a faked account but I just copied this from the BBC news feed..
quote:
0741: Rock star Bryan Adams tweets: "Calling all the great musicians and singers in the world, we should do a concert for Japan."
Oh please God, don't let Bono get involved. Japan have had enough suffering.
Dutch bears have terrible skin due to their clogged paws
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 15/3/11 at 09:30 AM |
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Something I thought was very suspicious was that apparently the mobile generators that were brought in couldn't be hooked up as they had the
"wrong plugs". I simply don't believe that; if the only thing that stood between you and a core meltdown was the wrong connectors,
you'd have the connectors off and have it hard wired ASAP. Wiring codes can take a back seat in this situation.
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 15/3/11 at 09:39 AM |
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I'd guess that we're not talking 15A generators here - they're probably trying to connect hundreds or thousands of Amps at high
voltage. The sort of power that will fry equipment if the connections aren't 100% right.
You can imagine all the safety interlocks around the connectors too - "if it isn't right, you're not going to connect to
ME!"
And all the while they're trying to make these connections, they're waiting for the roof to blow off the building at any time... 
[Edited on 15/3/11 by David Jenkins]
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Dangle_kt
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| posted on 15/3/11 at 10:00 AM |
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An elephant in the room?
Thats the last thing the poor workers at the nuclear power plant need! 
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Ivan
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| posted on 15/3/11 at 10:09 AM |
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One positive in it all - it is most probably a good time to buy Uranium shares as some have dropped 40% in the past two days. I know I will be 
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ColinM
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| posted on 15/3/11 at 10:19 AM |
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And here's a very interesting Japanese perspective on the diaster. Shows their level of preparedness very well indeed. Makes you wonder what
levels of preparation other countries have to deal with natural or manmade scenarios
http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/03/13/some-perspective-on-the-japan-earthquake/
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 15/3/11 at 10:38 AM |
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That's a good link - very informative.
It also has a link to further info - MITNSE
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v8kid
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| posted on 15/3/11 at 10:40 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
Something I thought was very suspicious was that apparently the mobile generators that were brought in couldn't be hooked up as they had the
"wrong plugs". I simply don't believe that; if the only thing that stood between you and a core meltdown was the wrong connectors,
you'd have the connectors off and have it hard wired ASAP. Wiring codes can take a back seat in this situation.
I think these pumps might be 3,300/6,600 volts and its flashover at the terminals that would be the issue. however as you say it can be overcome on
site with a bit of semiconducting heat shrink
Cheers!
You'd be surprised how quickly the sales people at B&Q try and assist you after ignoring you for the past 15 minutes when you try and start a
chainsaw
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Strontium Dog
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| posted on 15/3/11 at 10:43 AM |
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Personally I hope the Anti Nuke brigade give it the big one! You must be mad to think nuclear power is safe after this! How can you all be so blind as
to think a reactor that may well be leaking fissionable material is OK?
A couple of years ago I made a brief study of Chernobyl and Pripyat. I intend to go there in the next few years to have a look for myself, meanwhile
heres a few pics of the place to remind you of what nuclear fuel does to the planet when it all goes wrong, which it does!
http://www.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q=pripyat&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&sa=X&ei=40F_TYzCMIyBhQee37mqBw&ved=0CEYQsAQ&b
iw=1680&bih=825
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mangogrooveworkshop
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| posted on 15/3/11 at 10:51 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
I'd guess that we're not talking 15A generators here - they're probably trying to connect hundreds or thousands of Amps at high
voltage. The sort of power that will fry equipment if the connections aren't 100% right.
You can imagine all the safety interlocks around the connectors too - "if it isn't right, you're not going to connect to
ME!"
And all the while they're trying to make these connections, they're waiting for the roof to blow off the building at any time...
[Edited on 15/3/11 by David Jenkins]
Im sorry but electricery comes in two flavours dc and ac............single or 3 phase. A motor is a dumb animal and would be used to drive the pumps.
I work with electrical stuff all day.............I would have made a plan.....and those plugs would have been made to work.
Been at a political rally working for soundscapes when we had a cable blow......lets just say a hack saw was used to cut the damaged section out and
wood and clamps used to joint the cables.
When you are wearing the wrong colour skin you make a plan.....
Its in my dna to solve problems.
You would wire the greccos to run those pumps.........supply boards buzz bar chamber opened and connected directly on to the bars.
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scudderfish
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| posted on 15/3/11 at 10:53 AM |
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And when a dam goes, up to 230,000 thought dead
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banqiao_Dam
And coal mining is a nice cuddly industry with only >2,000 miners killed in China in 2004
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_mining#Dangers_to_miners
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Strontium Dog
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| posted on 15/3/11 at 11:02 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by scudderfish
And when a dam goes, up to 230,000 thought dead
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banqiao_Dam
And coal mining is a nice cuddly industry with only >2,000 miners killed in China in 2004
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_mining#Dangers_to_miners
Yes that is dreadful too, but at least there was no radioactive contamination. Perhaps you think this is preferable
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 15/3/11 at 11:21 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mangogrooveworkshop
Im sorry but electricery comes in two flavours dc and ac............single or 3 phase. A motor is a dumb animal and would be used to drive the pumps.
I work with electrical stuff all day.............I would have made a plan.....and those plugs would have been made to work.
I didn't say it couldn't be done - just that it wasn't going to be easy, and could get messy if done wrong.
I guess they're doing something along those lines at the moment.
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deezee
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| posted on 15/3/11 at 11:23 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Strontium Dog
Personally I hope the Anti Nuke brigade give it the big one! You must be mad to think nuclear power is safe after this! How can you all be so blind as
to think a reactor that may well be leaking fissionable material is OK?
Well for a start your not even comparing like for like reactors, let alone a comparable safety environment at the facilities. I'm not
interested in an argument, but I do protest to being preached too like I'm too stupid to make my own mind up about nuclear power. Personally I
think modern reactors are incredibly safe, even those that get smashed in by earthquakes, tsunamis and explosions are still at no risk of meltdown.
Pretty impressive I think. So in a country like ours, where those factors can be excluded, they are the perfect alternative to burning fossil fuels.
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richardlee237
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| posted on 15/3/11 at 11:34 AM |
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I work for the largest Rental power company in the World.
Our standard equipment has the ability to tap at all commercially used high voltages upto 20kv.
In any distribution there is usually somewhere on the system that power can be supplied for a temporary solution even direct onto the motor if
necessary and control the generator speed and fields to give a soft start.
High voltage systems do not plug in but use bolted connections.
I am sure that the power station engineers tried everything they could to keep the cooloing pumps running, the problem is that few people, if any, in
the media have the knowledge, or will, to understand what is really happening.
Incidentally our share price went up by 120p yesterday !
Quote Lord Kelvin
“Large increases in cost with questionable increases in performance can be tolerated only in race horses and women.”
Quote Richard Lee
"and cars"
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mangogrooveworkshop
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| posted on 15/3/11 at 12:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by richardlee237
I work for the largest Rental power company in the World.
Our standard equipment has the ability to tap at all commercially used high voltages upto 20kv.
In any distribution there is usually somewhere on the system that power can be supplied for a temporary solution even direct onto the motor if
necessary and control the generator speed and fields to give a soft start.
High voltage systems do not plug in but use bolted connections.
I am sure that the power station engineers tried everything they could to keep the cooloing pumps running, the problem is that few people, if any, in
the media have the knowledge, or will, to understand what is really happening.
Incidentally our share price went up by 120p yesterday !
GIZA JOBB MR !
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richardlee237
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| posted on 15/3/11 at 12:18 PM |
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Yes, but look where I work !!
Quote Lord Kelvin
“Large increases in cost with questionable increases in performance can be tolerated only in race horses and women.”
Quote Richard Lee
"and cars"
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 15/3/11 at 12:38 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Strontium Dog
Personally I hope the Anti Nuke brigade give it the big one! You must be mad to think nuclear power is safe after this! How can you all be so blind as
to think a reactor that may well be leaking fissionable material is OK?
Personally I hope that people do their own research rather than believing everything they read in the media and don't jump to silly conclusions.
Japan have (or rather had) over 47 gigawatts generated by nuclear power. What do you suggest this is replaced with?
[Edited on 15/3/11 by MikeRJ]
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ed1801
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| posted on 15/3/11 at 01:16 PM |
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"Personally I hope that people do their own research rather than believing everything they read in the media and don't jump to silly
conclusions. Japan have (or rather had) over 47 gigawatts generated by nuclear power. What do you suggest this is replaced with?"
Errr.... isn't it obvious? You need 7,500,650,200,987,696,531 of the biggest wind turbines you can get you hands on. 
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britishtrident
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| posted on 15/3/11 at 01:28 PM |
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Gas cooled reactors such the UKs AGR and the Canadian CANDU wouldn't have this type of problem, I used to live looking out at the Magnox
and AGR station at Huntertston and never had the slightest concern about the site.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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