Am developing a system for my own car, but the more time I spend with it, the more I think it might be useful as a product to all, really interested to hear feedback on what's good and what's not, and what sort of price you would be prepared to pay... It's by no means finished, but am nearly at the point of running the development system in the R4

It's basically everything needed for IVA in a wheel and control box - right down to lighting relays!

Based around a Samsung Galaxy Note (nice large OLED display) Phone power is controlled automatically
Includes the wheel
Removable QR boss (with electrical connection built in)

Button Functions:
Hazard Lights
Indicators
Fog light
Main Beam
Dipped beam
Sidelights
Horn


Display Functions:
Layout customisable
10Hz Datalogging (with GPS and chassis mounted 8g 3 axis accelerometer, all sensors logged)
Satnav (Still under development)
Phone (via bluetooth headset)
Trip Counter
Odometer
Tacho
Shift lights
Speedo
Gear display
Oil Temp
Water Temp
Oil Pressure
Oil Switch
Battery voltage
Handbrake telltale
Light telltales
Fuel Level
Ambient Temp
Track Temp
All 4 tyre temps (contactless thermal sensors)
Configurable alarms
Neutral indicator for BEC
Steering Angle Indicator Input
Throttle Position Input
Brake Pressure Input
Boost Pressure Input



[Edited on 31/7/13 by cloudy]

[Edited on 31/7/13 by cloudy]

Looks cool as F***.

Personally ive never been a fan of steering wheel mounted displays/buttons unless specfically for single seater use where theres no real option for a dash. trying to read a speedo or revs when its at an angle isnt great for road car. Trying to indicate when already on lock or trying to aim for a small horn switch whilst avoiding someone isnt easy!

Ah forgot to mention something that partially helps - things like the speedo/gear display can be made to remain upright - even as the wheel rotates (using the phone's accelerometers for that part)

This is definitely aimed at a more track orientated car - particularly BECs...

What about weather proofing? Cracking thing though I will be placing order!

I'd like the option of using my own device and wheel, I think having a fully integrated wheel would be the ideal but I can imagine a much wider user group if there are more 'DIY' solutions.

Also, I can imagine maybe three levels of options, again for those who don't want the 'Rolls royce' solution;

Level 1, a paid app in conjunction with an ELM327 bluetooth module to cover limited functionality. (Basically a variation on Torque?)
Level 2, all of the above but with a separately purchased module to work with lights etc.
Level 3, the full wheel and associated gubbins.

It would give you more scope for a profit, as it's likely most users would stay with level 1?

I like it but can guess it's not going to be very locost.
And personal i would work the indicators from behind the wheel for ease but then again i dont know how the wheel would feel in terms of easy for accessing buttons ect.
Would it be a case of using your phone for the display or is it all built in ?

As for customisation of the display i prefer simple straight forward, i would set so it so it does not look too buisy.
On the other hand for track tyre temps and things like that could be helpful.

Great jpb and good luck
Love to see the prototype

The whole unit should be fine in rain, there is a gasket around the phone screen, and the buttons are all IP67 rated....

The wheel is included purely because it's cheaper to machine&mould my own in the shape that works well with the display than to buy one off the shelf, but there's no reason it couldn't be used with your own wheel...

Slimy38 - I think Torque already covers off that functionality very well, in my view you need to go to this level of integration and not use bluetooth to make something robust enough to be your primary dashboard.... Plus I'm able to update all values 20 times a second - not something OBD is capable of! There are other issues in that some of the intelligence is in the wheel enclosure for multiplexing over limited conductors in the QR boss...

James

WOW- that is awesome!

quote:

---

Originally posted by samjc
I like it but can guess it's not going to be very locost.
And personal i would work the indicators from behind the wheel for ease but then again i dont know how the wheel would feel in terms of easy for accessing buttons ect.
Would it be a case of using your phone for the display or is it all built in ?

As for customisation of the display i prefer simple straight forward, i would set so it so it does not look too buisy.
On the other hand for track tyre temps and things like that could be helpful.

Great jpb and good luck
Love to see the prototype

---

You may want to look at two models, 1 steering wheel and one as a moulded dash board. 8g accelerometers are a little hopeful lol.

how much do you think it'll be? if its too much you put it against well developed/supported/tested competition.

quote:

---

Originally posted by cloudy
Slimy38 - I think Torque already covers off that functionality very well, in my view you need to go to this level of integration and not use bluetooth to make something robust enough to be your primary dashboard.... Plus I'm able to update all values 20 times a second - not something OBD is capable of! There are other issues in that some of the intelligence is in the wheel enclosure for multiplexing over limited conductors in the QR boss...

James

---

Bluetooth sucks For accurate logging the variable latency (from not bad to dreadful) really screws you up. We support it in MSDroid as a lowest common denominator, but for serious usage USB/WiFi/RFC1149 is a much better option.

Regards,
Dave

As Dave says above - it's not that bluetooth isn't robust - but the data rate and latency can vary hugely - especially in the horrific EMI environment of a car!

I could in theory control the power button with a micro solenoid - but it adds a layer of fallibility I wanted to avoid!

Re: power on/off - In basic terms when you switch off the ignition the phone enters sleep - where it remains for a configurable amount of time (up to 24hours) After this time elapses the phone then shuts down. In real terms (with a custom lightweight ROM) a cold boot is 15 seconds, and a warm boot is instant. You would probably expect to see a cold boot just once for that day's usage when first turning the car on. For me getting helmet on, getting some warmth in the engine and belting up takes that time, so I'm hoping that's the same for others! Certainly coming back after filling up with fuel for example it would always be instant... It seemed the best solution in my mind, but would welcome any suggestions for improving that!

Oh and media interface - completely doable, I just know you'd never hear the music in my car! Could be added though, would need a higher conductor count in the QR boss to bring stereo audio back to some sort of speaker system - or I guess a nice stereo bluetooth headset would be optimal?

James



[Edited on 31/7/13 by cloudy]

Looks great. I'd be interested in one... at the right price!

I would want it no more than 300mm in diameter, have every IVA telltale light and function button, and display:
MPH
RPM
Oil Pressure
Oil Temperature
Water Temp
Fuel
Gear Position

I would lock the screen so it stays in one position though, as it would take too long to change direction for anything other the slowest of steering movements. You could end up in a set of twisties where the screen is just randomly jumping about and you can't make use of it at all.

quote:

---

Originally posted by franky
how much do you think it'll be? if its too much you put it against well developed/supported/tested competition.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cloudy
As Dave says above - it's not that bluetooth isn't robust - but the data rate and latency can vary hugely - especially in the horrific EMI environment of a car!

I could in theory control the power button with a micro solenoid - but it adds a layer of fallibility I wanted to avoid!

Re: power on/off - In basic terms when you switch off the ignition the phone enters sleep - where it remains for a configurable amount of time (up to 24hours) After this time elapses the phone then shuts down. In real terms (with a custom lightweight ROM) a cold boot is 15 seconds, and a warm boot is instant. You would probably expect to see a cold boot just once for that day's usage when first turning the car on. For me getting helmet on, getting some warmth in the engine and belting up takes that time, so I'm hoping that's the same for others! Certainly coming back after filling up with fuel for example it would always be instant... It seemed the best solution in my mind, but would welcome any suggestions for improving that!

Oh and media interface - completely doable, I just know you'd never hear the music in my car! Could be added though, would need a higher conductor count in the QR boss to bring stereo audio back to some sort of speaker system - or I guess a nice stereo bluetooth headset would be optimal?

James



[Edited on 31/7/13 by cloudy]

---

Ditto - For the right price i would also be interested in one.

Just getting to the stage of wiring up my westie (got my jk seats from you if you remember) and going to get that through IVA, so that would be ideal

quote:

---

Originally posted by cloudy

quote:

---

Originally posted by franky
how much do you think it'll be? if its too much you put it against well developed/supported/tested competition.

---

It's looking like about £1000 including Control Box/Wheel/Wheel enclosure/Phone/QR Boss - maybe around £650 without wheel/boss...


Scootz - you would be very surprised how fast the rotating display can keep up, it integrates the magnetic/accelerometer and gyro sensors, and smooths it - certainly faster than you could turn the wheel by hand! Wheel is 300mm diameter at widest point...

---

Yep, that's my worry - though having had both a Race Technology Dash2 and ETB digidash, the Dash2 + Datalogger is £1000 and that's just for the display+logging - when you factor in the cost of buying a wheel/qr/switchgear/telltales you must be up at £1600 - and that still doesn't cover satnav/phone/tyre temps...

Feedback is most helpful! Especially re: cost, as there's no point if it's not commercial

[Edited on 31/7/13 by cloudy]

If I was being honest, you're selling a wheel with a fairly cheap tablet and some nice software, as a package you should make it £6-700 tops or less. There's always offers on the other stuff and even at this you might struggle.

Why not sell a mount to fit a particular range of wheels and just the software? I like what you're doing but I think it'd be a push to pay £1k on it.

Keep at it though

quote:

---

Originally posted by loggyboy
trying to read a speedo or revs when its at an angle isnt great for road car. Trying to indicate when already on lock or trying to aim for a small horn switch whilst avoiding someone isnt easy!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by franky
If I was being honest, you're selling a wheel with a fairly cheap tablet and some nice software, as a package you should make it £6-700 tops or less. There's always offers on the other stuff and even at this you might struggle.

Why not sell a mount to fit a particular range of wheels and just the software? I like what you're doing but I think it'd be a push to pay £1k on it.

Keep at it though

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by peter030371

quote:

---

Originally posted by loggyboy
trying to read a speedo or revs when its at an angle isnt great for road car. Trying to indicate when already on lock or trying to aim for a small horn switch whilst avoiding someone isnt easy!

---

Really? When going around any bends I tend to concentrate on the road not the dash board! I have had indicators and my horn on push button switches on my wheel since 1996....they still work fine and I have never ever once regretted doing it

---

It certainly can be any phone that supports OTG - but with a few caveats

I've looked at many, the physical limit is around 5" for a steering mounted display - the original plan was to have a nexus 7 in the dash, but you waste most of the display...

It also needs to have kernel support for fast charge, as GPS+full brightness needs far more than 500mA the charge port whilst using USB data normally supplies.

The note covers off all of these requirements, whilst having a perfectly flat front glass, relatively inexpensive, amoLED display and enough processing power for all of the displays plus 3d map display.

Haven't yet found anything that's quite as good a match, except perhaps the Nexus 5 (but expensive still)

The touchscreen is really only used for settings and satnav programming - everything else is a physical button. The display density allows all values to be on the screen at once, nothing worse than having to scroll through screens to find the data value you want!

[Edited on 31/7/13 by cloudy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by cloudy

quote:

---

Originally posted by franky
If I was being honest, you're selling a wheel with a fairly cheap tablet and some nice software, as a package you should make it £6-700 tops or less. There's always offers on the other stuff and even at this you might struggle.

Why not sell a mount to fit a particular range of wheels and just the software? I like what you're doing but I think it'd be a push to pay £1k on it.

Keep at it though

---

I'm truly surprised at your impression on costings - but that's why I posted, so will try and address that:

The N7000 galaxy note is still around £300 retail, it's certainly NOT a cheap tablet! I would be having to work through how to supply these for less - refurb might be an option
The software represents over 6 months of my time and some 10,000 lines of code, plus all of the hardware PCB development!
QR boss costs £280 + VAT
Buying a steering wheel anywhere else is going to cost over £100 - this is custom made...
The AMP connectors on the control box cost £50 a hit...

As you can see there's no way I could get it to £700, I suspect I'm selling myself short even at £1000, but hoping if the phone could be sourced as refurbed then it's doable...

---

Racetech now have the Dash2 pro for £600 (+VAT) which i guess most compares to this.

But once you add the extra's though (Racetech are a bit like certain Germain Car makers with their options lists !) your looking at an all in cost of at least £800, and thats not a colour display, nor includes the wheel or the boss or some of the functions

Personally i think the £1k price point is ok as long as the product support is there (something which racetech have been good with for myself). Offering it as a kit i think is also the best way to go, so if someone can source a galaxy note cheap off ebay then they can. Or if they just want to glue the Note to their dashboard and forget about the wheel then they can too.

I have an electronics background so the idea of having a product like this interests me more than buying something off the shelf.

Cheers
Tris

Yep, completely understand where you are coming from, taking it all on board!


The kit idea might have legs...

[Edited on 31/7/13 by cloudy]

Cant you check the specs on some of the Chinese phones which work out at half the price.

I have included a link to one I have been running myself over the last 6/7 month with NO problems, the plus side for me is it can dual sim cards so i can use it as my internet dongle with a dedicated data sim when I am travelling, and if you were buying in bulk you would get a decent discount. Or have a look at what else is available on that site that might suit at a lower price point.

5" Android Phone



[Edited on 31/7/2013 by Hector.Brocklebank]

My worry is I've had two cheap android tablets - one was unstable and one gave up after a few weeks of use!

That said, I know a lot of people do very well with them, and might be worth a go, the one linked looks good - are you able to get a fast charge kernel for it?

James,

Good to hear you are still busy and making pretty things.

The problem with this forum is that we mostly started here because we wanted to do it ourselves on the cheap.
I bet you would get a different response from the "spend it, don't make it" groups (caterham/elise types).
Personally I'd struggle to justify spending £1000 in one go.


Regarding costs, the £280+VAT for the QR is a big chunk. I guess this is because it carries some cabling etc, but it might be an area where you could save cost. Cutting costs on the tablet is possible but a bad idea, going with a biggest supplier should ensure spare parts into the reasonable future and decent quality (unlike the super budget offerings).


One last thought, if this incorporated Dave's Megasquirt logging functionality (scudderfish) then it would be even better, although I don't think it would extend your market as it is a niche on a niche.


Look forward to seeing more of your new car.

Matt

Thanks Matt,

Have been quiet on the forum, but only because I've been working hard - almost all the bodwork patterns are milled now - heck of a job

Yep the expensive parts are the phone and the QR boss - I guess supply your own for either of those would work...

quote:

---

Originally posted by cloudy
My worry is I've had two cheap android tablets - one was unstable and one gave up after a few weeks of use!

That said, I know a lot of people do very well with them, and might be worth a go, the one linked looks good - are you able to get a fast charge kernel for it?

---

Easy way to test is to search for the fast charge app in the play store - that will tell you whether it's supported or not....

There are two charge modes in android - AC and USB, when using a charger AC charge will allow over 1A - USB mode as standard means 500ma is all that's available (unless you enable fast charge on usb) There is a part of the OTG standard which lets a device report itself as an OTG host and an AC charger - but it's rarely implemented by phone manufacturers


James

[Edited on 31/7/13 by cloudy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by matt_gsxr

The problem with this forum is that we mostly started here because we wanted to do it ourselves on the cheap.
I bet you would get a different response from the "spend it, don't make it" groups (caterham/elise types).


Matt

---

I think the price is about right if its a smart, good well developed unit. Could be very keen!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tris
Racetech now have the Dash2 pro for £600 (+VAT) which i guess most compares to this.

---

Looks very nice but would think that GPS-based lap-timing, predictive lap, etc (as per cheaper Racetech, ETB products) is something people would be looking for? I know this would be a key feature for me.

Also, what is tablet durability like when mounted in a car? Have you done 10k miles without the tablet breaking yet?

I need to assess the durability in prototype - sure, but I've had a galaxy note bashing around in my pocket for nearly 2 years without any issues, so when encased in a protective housing it shouldn't present many more issues IMO

The lap timing + prediction is also doable (I intended to at some point) - all the data is there. I'd need to look into the required algorithms - I presume logically it builds a track map on lap 1, a marker button defines the start line - then compares your current position against your lap time at that position last time round - not sure if it's as easy as that or whether there's more going on...

James

My suspicion is that car vibration is both higher frequency and higher amplitude than your pocket, so quite a different kettle of worms. I guess you can only really find out if the hardware is up to it by testing.

Lap timing... it probably is basically that, but I bet there's lots of subtle bits. Like, what if you drop connection for a few seconds? Can you roughly fill in the gap with accelerometer data (very hard if the wheel is rotating). Are there difficulties with limited GPS resolution? Etc.

Plus, once you've done that, the next step is to be able to render nice video overlays and provide basic analysis tools like ETB, racetec, etc do. It's not a small task from a software point of view, at least, not to do it well. And people won't be happy if the development cost is reflected in the price... lots of people seem to think it will just be hardware costs plus £20 profit...

Very very interesting project. Nice work. It's a lot of money to spend in one go for some of us, but I completely see where the approx costing has come from.

Sorry I should have mentioned video overlays already done and working! - I thought about writing the software, but seemed better to leverage existing software - I've written an import module for http://www.dashware.net/ so it works natively. It also provides some basic lap analysis functions...

I'd probably write a smoothing algorithm on your current delta time, so at least a single spurious reading won't throw that out - The accelerometer data is from an ADXL345 hard mounted in the control box - so no issues with wheel turning! You certainly could fill in the lost data

GPS in most phone and certainly the note is limited to 1Hz - I may add optional internal 10/20Hz GPS, but again it adds to the cost...

James

looks good you have to admine the technical know how of some of the bods on here .

I am going to add as wish lists ( selling Points )

> Text GPRS location ( stolen vehicle / traker type system )

and two for a real ( top end unit )

> camera input * 2 record to sd card ? ( auto overlay GPRS data )
> tyre Presure monitor

Keep us posted Agriv8

I like the stolen vehicle idea! A simple text with password to the car could have it report it's current position - that would take 10 mins to code up, and even better as long as it's within the set sleep time before shutdown it would work when the car is off...

[Edited on 1/8/13 by cloudy]

Great idea, looks fantastic. Well done.

Couple of things to consider if trying to turn an innovation into a commercial venture.

Reliability / warranty, you don't want these things failing in the hands of enthusiasts who may not be as savvy as you on looking after such things.

Product liability insurance, it can be bloody expensive.

There are probs loads of other things too.i think you are bang on trying to think what people will be prepared to spend and who the target market is. That said, unless you are going to sell good numbers and can tool up for a reasonable cost then you may find your profit is so minimal that it hardly becomes worth it. Defo continue to develop your own and get some testing in. Might be better to get a manufacturer interested rather than make yourself though. You may also have some innovative features that can be incorporated into other already available products.



Slight word of warning, if you were thinking of some sort of patent protection for any unique aspects, do not put the ideas into the public domain before they are protected. I'm no expert but sure you can't get protection once you post on a forum such as this.


I'm in awe of your ability to develop this idea. Fantastic skill and I hope you are successful with it.

Excellent idea.

BUT, I would do it with a dash mount initially to make it removable. This would set the initial cost a lot less and open it up to a bigger market.

"Excellent idea. BUT, I would do it with a dash mount initially to make it removable. This would set the initial cost a lot less and open it up to a bigger market"

Exactly my thoughts on reading this post, as most of us have Iphones/Galaxy/android, what would it involve to create an app, that could be scrolled through various engine management systems, and speed etc, assuming its not been done already
I personly would not want a revolving speedo in my steering wheel!

Steve

quote:

---

Originally posted by designer
Excellent idea.

BUT, I would do it with a dash mount initially to make it removable. This would set the initial cost a lot less and open it up to a bigger market.

---

I think the market has space for a lo-cost QR wheel mounted display with integrated controls. If you want another digital dash for your dash then dozens of these are already available including Android apps

What the op has come up with is about 1/3rd the price of the current offerings from the likes of PI and I for one would love to have one

That looks great!
Price doesn't sound too unreasonable (I'm guessing you could easily spend £1k on a digi dash, wheel, QR and switches) - but would need to be proven product with good back up/tech support.

Couple of questions though:
How would this be IVA complaint with regard to padding and a non-resetable odometer?