cloudy
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 09:27 AM |
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Any interest in an F1 style android based digi-wheel?
Am developing a system for my own car, but the more time I spend with it, the more I think it might be useful as a product to all, really interested
to hear feedback on what's good and what's not, and what sort of price you would be prepared to pay... It's by no means finished,
but am nearly at the point of running the development system in the R4
It's basically everything needed for IVA in a wheel and control box - right down to lighting relays!
Based around a Samsung Galaxy Note (nice large OLED display) Phone power is controlled automatically
Includes the wheel
Removable QR boss (with electrical connection built in)
Button Functions:
Hazard Lights
Indicators
Fog light
Main Beam
Dipped beam
Sidelights
Horn
Display Functions:
Layout customisable
10Hz Datalogging (with GPS and chassis mounted 8g 3 axis accelerometer, all sensors logged)
Satnav (Still under development)
Phone (via bluetooth headset)
Trip Counter
Odometer
Tacho
Shift lights
Speedo
Gear display
Oil Temp
Water Temp
Oil Pressure
Oil Switch
Battery voltage
Handbrake telltale
Light telltales
Fuel Level
Ambient Temp
Track Temp
All 4 tyre temps (contactless thermal sensors)
Configurable alarms
Neutral indicator for BEC
Steering Angle Indicator Input
Throttle Position Input
Brake Pressure Input
Boost Pressure Input
[Edited on 31/7/13 by cloudy]
[Edited on 31/7/13 by cloudy]
www.warnercars.com
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loggyboy
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 09:34 AM |
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Looks cool as F***.
Personally ive never been a fan of steering wheel mounted displays/buttons unless specfically for single seater use where theres no real option for a
dash. trying to read a speedo or revs when its at an angle isnt great for road car. Trying to indicate when already on lock or trying to aim for a
small horn switch whilst avoiding someone isnt easy!
Mistral Motorsport
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cloudy
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 09:36 AM |
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Ah forgot to mention something that partially helps - things like the speedo/gear display can be made to remain upright - even as the wheel rotates
(using the phone's accelerometers for that part)
This is definitely aimed at a more track orientated car - particularly BECs...
www.warnercars.com
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liam.mccaffrey
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 09:52 AM |
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What about weather proofing? Cracking thing though I will be placing order!
Build Blog
Build Photo Album
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Slimy38
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 09:54 AM |
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I'd like the option of using my own device and wheel, I think having a fully integrated wheel would be the ideal but I can imagine a much wider
user group if there are more 'DIY' solutions.
Also, I can imagine maybe three levels of options, again for those who don't want the 'Rolls royce' solution;
Level 1, a paid app in conjunction with an ELM327 bluetooth module to cover limited functionality. (Basically a variation on Torque?)
Level 2, all of the above but with a separately purchased module to work with lights etc.
Level 3, the full wheel and associated gubbins.
It would give you more scope for a profit, as it's likely most users would stay with level 1?
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samjc
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 09:57 AM |
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I like it but can guess it's not going to be very locost.
And personal i would work the indicators from behind the wheel for ease but then again i dont know how the wheel would feel in terms of easy for
accessing buttons ect.
Would it be a case of using your phone for the display or is it all built in ?
As for customisation of the display i prefer simple straight forward, i would set so it so it does not look too buisy.
On the other hand for track tyre temps and things like that could be helpful.
Great jpb and good luck
Love to see the prototype
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cloudy
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 10:00 AM |
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The whole unit should be fine in rain, there is a gasket around the phone screen, and the buttons are all IP67 rated....
The wheel is included purely because it's cheaper to machine&mould my own in the shape that works well with the display than to buy one off
the shelf, but there's no reason it couldn't be used with your own wheel...
Slimy38 - I think Torque already covers off that functionality very well, in my view you need to go to this level of integration and not use bluetooth
to make something robust enough to be your primary dashboard.... Plus I'm able to update all values 20 times a second - not something OBD is
capable of! There are other issues in that some of the intelligence is in the wheel enclosure for multiplexing over limited conductors in the QR
boss...
James
www.warnercars.com
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HowardB
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 10:02 AM |
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WOW- that is awesome!
Howard
Fisher Fury was 2000 Zetec - now a 1600 (it Lives again  and goes zoom)
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cloudy
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 10:05 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by samjc
I like it but can guess it's not going to be very locost.
And personal i would work the indicators from behind the wheel for ease but then again i dont know how the wheel would feel in terms of easy for
accessing buttons ect.
Would it be a case of using your phone for the display or is it all built in ?
As for customisation of the display i prefer simple straight forward, i would set so it so it does not look too buisy.
On the other hand for track tyre temps and things like that could be helpful.
Great jpb and good luck
Love to see the prototype
The phone have to be a supplied unit (The phone is decased as I need to interface with the power button)
Cost wise, I think it should be cheaper than an off the shelf race display and datalogger, and miles cheaper once you factor in the cost of the
wheel/QR boss/switchgear/relays etc - plus the functionality/customisability will be far better....
I've already milled a foam prototype and the indicators feel very natural on the front - R4 currently has it's indicators behind, and
it's quite awkward with the paddle shift there too....
www.warnercars.com
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jeffw
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 10:10 AM |
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You may want to look at two models, 1 steering wheel and one as a moulded dash board. 8g accelerometers are a little hopeful lol.
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franky
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 10:28 AM |
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how much do you think it'll be? if its too much you put it against well developed/supported/tested competition.
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Slimy38
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 10:32 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by cloudy
Slimy38 - I think Torque already covers off that functionality very well, in my view you need to go to this level of integration and not use bluetooth
to make something robust enough to be your primary dashboard.... Plus I'm able to update all values 20 times a second - not something OBD is
capable of! There are other issues in that some of the intelligence is in the wheel enclosure for multiplexing over limited conductors in the QR
boss...
James
Bluetooth as a communications method is actually quite robust, most problems seen on an OBD connection are usually down to the fake ELM327 modules
that are on the market. But you're right, OBD isn't that fast.
That phone decasing sounds quite severe, are you absolutely sure there is no other way of connecting to the power button? Are you actually switching
the device off or just putting it to sleep? I only ask because my Android devices take time to boot, but waking them from sleep is a lot more like
what I might expect from a digi dash.
And have you considered the possibility of some sort of media interface, you know for when you're getting to and from the track? 
I'm definitely going to keep an eye on this though, I think you've got a really good idea here.
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scudderfish
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 10:41 AM |
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Bluetooth sucks For accurate logging the variable latency (from not bad to dreadful) really screws you up. We support it in MSDroid as a lowest
common denominator, but for serious usage USB/WiFi/RFC1149 is a much better option.
Regards,
Dave
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cloudy
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 10:55 AM |
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As Dave says above - it's not that bluetooth isn't robust - but the data rate and latency can vary hugely - especially in the horrific EMI
environment of a car!
I could in theory control the power button with a micro solenoid - but it adds a layer of fallibility I wanted to avoid!
Re: power on/off - In basic terms when you switch off the ignition the phone enters sleep - where it remains for a configurable amount of time (up to
24hours) After this time elapses the phone then shuts down. In real terms (with a custom lightweight ROM) a cold boot is 15 seconds, and a warm boot
is instant. You would probably expect to see a cold boot just once for that day's usage when first turning the car on. For me getting helmet on,
getting some warmth in the engine and belting up takes that time, so I'm hoping that's the same for others! Certainly coming back after
filling up with fuel for example it would always be instant... It seemed the best solution in my mind, but would welcome any suggestions for improving
that!
Oh and media interface - completely doable, I just know you'd never hear the music in my car! Could be added though, would need a higher
conductor count in the QR boss to bring stereo audio back to some sort of speaker system - or I guess a nice stereo bluetooth headset would be
optimal?
James
[Edited on 31/7/13 by cloudy]
www.warnercars.com
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scootz
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 11:06 AM |
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Looks great. I'd be interested in one... at the right price!
I would want it no more than 300mm in diameter, have every IVA telltale light and function button, and display:
MPH
RPM
Oil Pressure
Oil Temperature
Water Temp
Fuel
Gear Position
I would lock the screen so it stays in one position though, as it would take too long to change direction for anything other the slowest of steering
movements. You could end up in a set of twisties where the screen is just randomly jumping about and you can't make use of it at all.
It's Evolution Baby!
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cloudy
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 11:20 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by franky
how much do you think it'll be? if its too much you put it against well developed/supported/tested competition.
It's looking like about £1000 including Control Box/Wheel/Wheel enclosure/Phone/QR Boss - maybe around £650 without wheel/boss...
Scootz - you would be very surprised how fast the rotating display can keep up, it integrates the magnetic/accelerometer and gyro sensors, and smooths
it - certainly faster than you could turn the wheel by hand! Wheel is 300mm diameter at widest point...
www.warnercars.com
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franky
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 11:21 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by cloudy
As Dave says above - it's not that bluetooth isn't robust - but the data rate and latency can vary hugely - especially in the horrific EMI
environment of a car!
I could in theory control the power button with a micro solenoid - but it adds a layer of fallibility I wanted to avoid!
Re: power on/off - In basic terms when you switch off the ignition the phone enters sleep - where it remains for a configurable amount of time (up to
24hours) After this time elapses the phone then shuts down. In real terms (with a custom lightweight ROM) a cold boot is 15 seconds, and a warm boot
is instant. You would probably expect to see a cold boot just once for that day's usage when first turning the car on. For me getting helmet on,
getting some warmth in the engine and belting up takes that time, so I'm hoping that's the same for others! Certainly coming back after
filling up with fuel for example it would always be instant... It seemed the best solution in my mind, but would welcome any suggestions for improving
that!
Oh and media interface - completely doable, I just know you'd never hear the music in my car! Could be added though, would need a higher
conductor count in the QR boss to bring stereo audio back to some sort of speaker system - or I guess a nice stereo bluetooth headset would be
optimal?
James
[Edited on 31/7/13 by cloudy]
How much do you think it'll be is the million dollar question?
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Tris
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 11:22 AM |
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Ditto - For the right price i would also be interested in one.
Just getting to the stage of wiring up my westie (got my jk seats from you if you remember) and going to get that through IVA, so that would be ideal
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franky
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 11:23 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by cloudy
quote:
Originally posted by franky
how much do you think it'll be? if its too much you put it against well developed/supported/tested competition.
It's looking like about £1000 including Control Box/Wheel/Wheel enclosure/Phone/QR Boss - maybe around £650 without wheel/boss...
Scootz - you would be very surprised how fast the rotating display can keep up, it integrates the magnetic/accelerometer and gyro sensors, and smooths
it - certainly faster than you could turn the wheel by hand! Wheel is 300mm diameter at widest point...
That puts you up against some serious competition, proper race spec stuff thats been well tested/developed/proven....
[Edited on 31/7/13 by franky]
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cloudy
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 11:30 AM |
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Yep, that's my worry - though having had both a Race Technology Dash2 and ETB digidash, the Dash2 + Datalogger is £1000 and that's just
for the display+logging - when you factor in the cost of buying a wheel/qr/switchgear/telltales you must be up at £1600 - and that still doesn't
cover satnav/phone/tyre temps...
Feedback is most helpful! Especially re: cost, as there's no point if it's not commercial
[Edited on 31/7/13 by cloudy]
www.warnercars.com
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franky
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 11:36 AM |
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If I was being honest, you're selling a wheel with a fairly cheap tablet and some nice software, as a package you should make it £6-700 tops
or less. There's always offers on the other stuff and even at this you might struggle.
Why not sell a mount to fit a particular range of wheels and just the software? I like what you're doing but I think it'd be a push to
pay £1k on it.
Keep at it though
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peter030371
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 11:37 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
trying to read a speedo or revs when its at an angle isnt great for road car. Trying to indicate when already on lock or trying to aim for a small
horn switch whilst avoiding someone isnt easy!
Really? When going around any bends I tend to concentrate on the road not the dash board! I have had indicators and my horn on push button switches on
my wheel since 1996....they still work fine and I have never ever once regretted doing it
I am looking at going wireless just because I can and then do away with the cable and dashboard plug I have to disconnect when I take the QR wheel off
the car
IF this was available now I would seriously have to look at selling on my Dash2 before fitting it, scrap the RF wheel project at work and invest in
one of these
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cloudy
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 11:49 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by franky
If I was being honest, you're selling a wheel with a fairly cheap tablet and some nice software, as a package you should make it £6-700 tops
or less. There's always offers on the other stuff and even at this you might struggle.
Why not sell a mount to fit a particular range of wheels and just the software? I like what you're doing but I think it'd be a push to
pay £1k on it.
Keep at it though
I'm truly surprised at your impression on costings - but that's why I posted, so will try and address that:
The N7000 galaxy note is still around £300 retail, it's certainly NOT a cheap tablet! I would be having to work through how to supply these for
less - refurb might be an option
The software represents over 6 months of my time and some 10,000 lines of code, plus all of the hardware PCB development!
QR boss costs £280 + VAT
Buying a steering wheel anywhere else is going to cost over £100 - this is custom made...
The AMP connectors on the control box cost £50 a hit...
As you can see there's no way I could get it to £700, I suspect I'm selling myself short even at £1000, but hoping if the phone could be
sourced as refurbed then it's doable...
www.warnercars.com
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Slimy38
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 11:55 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by peter030371
quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
trying to read a speedo or revs when its at an angle isnt great for road car. Trying to indicate when already on lock or trying to aim for a small
horn switch whilst avoiding someone isnt easy!
Really? When going around any bends I tend to concentrate on the road not the dash board! I have had indicators and my horn on push button switches on
my wheel since 1996....they still work fine and I have never ever once regretted doing it
The only thing I would say is that it's fairly easy to find a tactile switch when you need one, tablets have one major disadvantage in that
it's difficult to operate by feel alone. I had a car recently that had a touch screen stereo, having to actually focus on the unit to change the
radio channel was challenging. I missed being able to feel for the button and knowing where it was in relation to other buttons.
Although there is someone developing a tactile screen for phones, not a clue how far they got with it though.
Cloudy, does it have to be the note? There are other Android tabs out there for a much cheaper price, OK they're not OLED and probably have a
fraction of the processing power, but they might do the job? I have an Advent Vega that my daughter used in the back of the car for watching TV, it
was ok in everything other than bright sunlight.
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cloudy
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 12:07 PM |
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It certainly can be any phone that supports OTG - but with a few caveats
I've looked at many, the physical limit is around 5" for a steering mounted display - the original plan was to have a nexus 7 in the dash,
but you waste most of the display...
It also needs to have kernel support for fast charge, as GPS+full brightness needs far more than 500mA the charge port whilst using USB data normally
supplies.
The note covers off all of these requirements, whilst having a perfectly flat front glass, relatively inexpensive, amoLED display and enough
processing power for all of the displays plus 3d map display.
Haven't yet found anything that's quite as good a match, except perhaps the Nexus 5 (but expensive still)
The touchscreen is really only used for settings and satnav programming - everything else is a physical button. The display density allows all values
to be on the screen at once, nothing worse than having to scroll through screens to find the data value you want!
[Edited on 31/7/13 by cloudy]
www.warnercars.com
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