smart51
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| posted on 30/5/17 at 09:34 AM |
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lightest 100bhp engine/gearbox/reverse combo
Another in a series of my what if scratch builds. This time a mid engined 4 wheeler. I reckon 100 BHP would be enough in a 400kg car (though more is
alway better!). What's the lightest engine and gearbox with reverse that would make this?
I'm not interested in turbocharging a stock engine, tuning the knackers off something or picking something obscure or old lump. I'm not
against some mild fettling though. What would you choose?
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femster87
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| posted on 30/5/17 at 09:42 AM |
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Yaris engine?
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Ugg10
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| posted on 30/5/17 at 09:56 AM |
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I would guess something like a 600cc bike engine (Yamaha r6?), chain drive diff and a starter motor reverse.
Possibly a smart car with the brabus uplift which makes close to 100hp but you have to make do with the flappy paddle gearbox. Banks put this in the
Europa a while back, worth a search for it, orange car.
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1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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Doctor Derek Doctors
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| posted on 30/5/17 at 11:15 AM |
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Pretty much any 600cc bike engine from the mid 90's onwards with an electric reverse. A carb'd CBR600 engine is 62kg with gearbox (if my
memory serves me right) add a few more for the reverse so call it 70kg at most and will give 100-110bhp. No car engine/box combo will be near that.
Designer and Supplier of the T89 Designs - Single Seater Locost. Build you own Single Seater Racecar for ~£5k.
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Available Now: The Sports Racer Add-On pack, Build a full bodied Sports Racer for Trackdays, Sprints and Racing.
www.t89.co.uk
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callan@t89.co.uk
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SPYDER
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| posted on 30/5/17 at 12:02 PM |
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Just to be a little different I would go for a late-ish GSXR750 motor. You did say "more is always better"!
14,500 redline. Titanium valves etc...
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loggyboy
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| posted on 30/5/17 at 12:48 PM |
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1.0 Ecoboost is only 97kg and 1.6 is only 114kg.
Would make for easy boost if 100hp turned out not to be enough.
[Edited on 30-5-17 by loggyboy]
Mistral Motorsport
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nick205
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| posted on 30/5/17 at 01:36 PM |
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A lot of FWD hatch engines make 100bhp. Having thought about this as a project myself before I think most could be positioned for a mid mount RWD
configuration too. IIRC there's a number of smaller, lighter 3 cylinder motors around too. Personally I like the idea of a cheapish readily
available engine and g/box - if one goes pop then get another one.
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hughpinder
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| posted on 30/5/17 at 03:02 PM |
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K series engine - 1.6 was lightest (engine only at 93kg) but 1.8 more powerful (104kg)
Gearbox about 35kg I believe
http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2/engines/engine_options.htm
and tuning information :
http://www.dvandrews.co.uk/
Regards
Hugh
Edited to add: Lightest fro a car engine and box combo anyway, bike engines somewhat different!
[Edited on 30/5/17 by hughpinder]
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motivforz
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| posted on 30/5/17 at 05:12 PM |
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We've got a 2000 yaris 1.3 vvti as our runaround. Despite it being in the 100hp ballpark, I wouldn't use it as a donor due to how
uninspiring it is to drive. Despite being NA, the lag is significant, vvti doesn't kick in with a honda vtec style punch so is less exciting,
and it's generally a bit sluggish. Nice and small powertrain though!
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rdodger
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| posted on 30/5/17 at 05:51 PM |
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K Series VVC 160 bhp & PG1 from a BRM with LSD and closer ratios.
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ettore bugatti
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| posted on 30/5/17 at 07:16 PM |
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Another one for the 600cc bike + mild hybrid drive for reverse.
BMW R boxer engine on a Citroen 2CV box will be pretty light, but needs more work to get it running.
Is going be a trike any way? I thought 400kg and 4 wheels only work utp 15-18kW for L7e/ MSVA?
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 30/5/17 at 08:12 PM |
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Suzuki G13b and an SJ gearbox. Not easy to find these days, but very light and 120hp+. Put an MX5 1.6 diff in, and you've got a light package
all round.
Bke engines are great for power and lightness, but finding a light diff isn't easy in the long ratio needed.
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JC
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| posted on 31/5/17 at 07:21 AM |
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I seem to recall a figure of 85kg for Zetec SE engine and gearbox. Take your pick of 1.25, 1.4, 1.6 or 1.7 for the power!
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Sam_68
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| posted on 31/5/17 at 07:35 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JC
I seem to recall a figure of 85kg for Zetec SE engine and gearbox.
That sounds very much like the figure for the engine alone: no car modern car engine is that light, with gearbox as well (FWD gearboxes are typically
around 35kg on their own).
The Toyota D-1KR-FE 1 litre triple (Yaris, Aygo, C1, etc.) can go down to 60kg, fully dressed, with lightweight ancillaries, but only produces circa
80bhp in n/a form (though you can get 140bhp by supercharging - albeit with the extra weight of supercharger and intercooler).
I'm having similar problems choosing a very lightweight engine package at the moment, without going to a BEC or something ultra-exotic, so
I'm interested in any other bright ideas!
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JC
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| posted on 31/5/17 at 09:56 AM |
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Not sure whether this still exists....boosts the 80hp figure!
http://www.c1gti.co.uk
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johnH20
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| posted on 31/5/17 at 10:12 AM |
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Quoted engine weights can be very misleading if you do not know the build level. The difference between a bare engine weight and a fully dressed
engine can sometimes exceed 20 Kg ( Clutch, flywheel, starter, alternator, inlet manifold etc. ) For info my Ford 1.7 Sigma engine with absolutely
everything on it to make it run ( including oil in it! ) is 105 kg - includes mounting brackets but no exhaust manifold.
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loggyboy
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| posted on 31/5/17 at 10:16 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JC
I seem to recall a figure of 85kg for Zetec SE engine and gearbox. Take your pick of 1.25, 1.4, 1.6 or 1.7 for the power!
Much more according to this - and thats without gearbox.
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=192229
Mistral Motorsport
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Sam_68
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| posted on 31/5/17 at 11:08 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by johnH20
Quoted engine weights can be very misleading if you do not know the build level.
Absolutely. Complete can of worms - it makes life very difficult! 
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Ugg10
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| posted on 31/5/17 at 11:45 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by johnH20
Quoted engine weights can be very misleading if you do not know the build level. The difference between a bare engine weight and a fully dressed
engine can sometimes exceed 20 Kg ( Clutch, flywheel, starter, alternator, inlet manifold etc. ) For info my Ford 1.7 Sigma engine with absolutely
everything on it to make it run ( including oil in it! ) is 105 kg - includes mounting brackets but no exhaust manifold.
I weighed my 1.7 Zetec SE/Sigma engine and got -
Bare engine plus cast upper exhaust manifold, 1/2 full of oil and Flywheel at 88kg
Bare engine, Cast manifold, 1/2 full of oil, starter, alternator and throttle bodies at 98kg
At a guess Clutch would be a couple of Kg, gearbox 25-30kg and then add water so approaching 130kg which is probably about as light as an all alloy
1.6-1.8l car engine and transverse gearbox would get in reality.
---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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Ugg10
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| posted on 31/5/17 at 11:50 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
Bke engines are great for power and lightness, but finding a light diff isn't easy in the long ratio needed.
Easiest way is to fit the bike engine across the frame and use a chain drive diff like this one, given the OP suggest he wants Mid engine not Front
(which is where the diff gets challenge and why Sierra 3.14 diffs go for silly money)-
http://www.westwalestrikeshack.co.uk/online-shop.php#!/WWTS-Lightweight-Differential-complete/p/10110072/category=2358049
Should be pretty light.
---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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smart51
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| posted on 31/5/17 at 12:24 PM |
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Thanks for the ideas. Bike engines are lightest for sure, but a drop in FWD car engine night be simpler if there's anything both light and
powerful. Plus little bike engines have higher revs and closer gears to match. You're doing crazy revs at highway speeds in top AND have a
very tall 1st gear.
Rover K series is a bit old school these days but a possibility. The 1KR-FE / Aygo engine is pretty light. 68 BHP stock is too low, but there is a
turbo kit available. The Dee Ltd 80 BHP version is probably a bit pricey and still a bit low on oomph.
Peugeot do an 82 BHP tripple, I've got one, but it's not my favorite engine in the world. And it's new so still expensive. After
that you've got the weight of a 4 pot which all seem to be 30+kg heavier and you need a chunk of extra power just to haul the extra wieght of
the block.
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Ugg10
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| posted on 31/5/17 at 01:59 PM |
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The 1.0l ford ecoboost has been mentioned, available from 75 to 125 hp iirc. turbo'd direct injection triple so lots of issues there in
controlling it but it is capable of 200hp. It is iron block so not the lightest but has a very small foot prin, A4 paper has been used in marketing
info.
So, 1.6 ecoboost (100-180hp) may be a better choice, although it is 4 pot it is all alloy so may be a similar weight to the three pot iron block,
140hp in the focus may be the best choice, ecu's are expensive though until someone comes up with an OEM howto.
Doesn't the base model Caterham 160 use the Suzuki Cappucino 660cc turbo engine ? Wrong way round but similar to the spec of the Smart.
One of these ? http://www.autoblog.com/2014/01/28/nissan-three-cylinder-race-engine/
What about the Alfa/Fiat twin air - two cylinder turbo and available up to around 105hp. Probably difficult electronics, iron block and little tuning
available but may do the job and will be small.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_TwinAir_engine
[Edited on 31/5/17 by Ugg10]
---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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sdh2903
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| posted on 31/5/17 at 05:38 PM |
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1.6 sigma engine would be the easiest/cheapest option. Light too. 1.7 is a nice engine if you want a bit more oomph.
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nickm
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| posted on 31/5/17 at 07:31 PM |
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Hi
The 1.6 sigma is very light and 100hp (1.7 is 120something with vvt)
I had one complete with flywheel, clutch, oil etc no alternator and water and i could squat down and pick it up and move it round the garage with no
problems when it was fastened to a small pallet.
Nick M
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ettore bugatti
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| posted on 31/5/17 at 09:19 PM |
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BMW F800?
It is a Rotax twin cylinder with 85hp @ 8000rpmm, about 68kg with gearbox if you can believe realoem.
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