Dom9
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| posted on 17/1/08 at 05:16 PM |
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There are some excellent references for building a model in CAD... Mulsanne Mike's webpage has a lot of detail about the Nissan P35 for
example:
Mulsanne's Corner Nissan P35 specification
I have even found a CAD drawing of it with major dimensions... But it is stuck on my hard disk and I am off home, so will try and get it posted up
here soon... Problem is that it's too small to make the dimensions out, but I might be able to get one and scale it.
In fact, if you open this web page, these guys would seem to have the original CAD files for a car:
Nissan IMSA GTP CAD files
I guess I will be spending some more hours over the next couple of weeks Googling various combinations of CAD, drawing, Group C, IMSA GTP etc etc
It is amazing what you can find on the web! I'm still not sure of going my own way with designing and making the body but I would be interested
to cost it all up...
Night all, Lou and I are off to a bar in Covent Garden for a drink!
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Delinquent
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| posted on 17/1/08 at 05:20 PM |
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Re the pattern making for the glass - they just need a thick heavy duty type GRP mould, very basic and simple!
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andygtt
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| posted on 17/1/08 at 08:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Delinquent
quote:
Originally posted by andygtt
sounds promising, especially as I recently found that the toyota screen I am using is over £500 from autoglass
Andy - don't whatever you do buy Toyota glass from autoglass!!!
They wanted something near £600 for the screen for mine - Toyota main dealer wanted £185 +vat. I phoned Autoglass back to check they didn't
actually mean £64 - they laughed, I told them how much Toyota sell it for, was put on hold, on return the helpful sales chap said "in that case
we'd like to offer you 40% discount"
erm ?! still put it at almost twice the price of Toyota...
good call that man... whilst having the new everyday car's glass replace (yep this is mid engined as well lol) by RAC I asked about the Toyota
glass for my car..... £140!!!
bloody autoglass are clearly a complete rip off
Andy
please redefine your limits.
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rpmagazine
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| posted on 18/1/08 at 12:20 AM |
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I have had custom glass made by perfect glass in Queensland Australia. Cost was $3000 for mould and 4 screens and I had to supply a very accurate FG
buck.
There are limitations and I think the 962 screen might be too much 3d curvature for glass.
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Dom9
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| posted on 18/1/08 at 10:02 AM |
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It does sound like this glass business could be a real problem, although I could stick with perspex and just never take the car on the road.
Would be interested to know whether and if Dauer solved the glass screen issue to make their road-going 962's legal as Fran said that ALL
countries required that cars be fitted with a 'glass' windscreen, if they have one fitted at all, to be legal.
I have been speaking with Derek Smith again and, I hope I am not out of line posting this here, but he has given me the prices, which I think are very
reasonable for a car of this quality...
*EDIT - Bodywork costs removed on request from Derek*
Scroll down for pictures of Derek's P962 bodywork for sale
Andy, how much has your body cost so far and how much will you expect it to have cost you when it is 'finished'?
That seems quite expensive in kit car terms but we have to remember that it's not a kit car and is produced in very small numbers...
If the rest of the car could be designed and built for a conservative £20k, not including my own labour time, then having a car with the looks of a
P962 and awesome performance for a total of say £30k would be awesome... Cheaper than an Ultima I guess?! But not road legal!
He has also said that he would supply me some drawings with dimensions on, but I feel he is a bit worried about supplying them without having sold me
anything. I totally understand that as he has spent many years and a lot of money I'm sure, developing his car and I'm sure he would not
want anyone to use his work or benefit commercially from what he has done.
So, if I do purchase anything from Derek, I would give him my word that I would never do anything commercial using his body and profit from his work.
So, if I get the 962 body - No spare bodies for you guys!
Still, I will spend some more time looking for other avenues as the 962 body seems a bit chicken and egg... I kind of need the body to start work, but
don't really want to spend so much up front without knowing how it all goes together... Maybe take Lou for a day out at Beaulieu soon... 
[Edited on 21/1/08 by Dom9]
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Doug68
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| posted on 18/1/08 at 11:04 AM |
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I'm told one of the issues with heavily curved windows is distortion of the view through them particuarly at perimiter where it's bent
most.
Whilst this obviously is not an issue at the track it might prove more of a problem on the public road. Anyone here have experience one way or the
other?
Looking at Peugots 908 LMP the section of the screen the driver gets to look through is quite flat, the rest of it being blacked out, though it would
take some modification of the Group C look this type of thing might be achievable and still maintain an overall group C look.
Or you could always do what I've done not being happy with curved glass available I've taken the extreme opposite view for my car and am
going for a 100% flat screen.
It doesn't look too much like a Group C car though.
Doug. 1TG
Sports Car Builders WA
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Dom9
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| posted on 18/1/08 at 11:37 AM |
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I love the Pug 908 so much - It was a real step-forward but probably a step too far as it meant costs were spiralling out of control... But what a
beautiful car!
In fact, I bought a plastic, Airfix-type, model of it about 10 years ago... I say that because somewhere I have kept the instructions for it and I
ought to look for them. The reason I kept them was that the plastic parts are so detailed that it's actually quite a good way of getting a feel
for how to start designing and building a car... I could even get some dimensions from the drawings by scaling.
I was thinking to myself that actually designing a body in CAD, maybe even using this software as a basis:
Sportscar design software
(see picture at bottom of that page for CAD-style layout)
Would be good because, being an ex-3d CFD specialist, I could probably build a model in Fluent and actually generate some data for drag and downforce
etc quite easily... Which would be pretty cool!
It's just the time and cost of designing and building the plug!
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Doug68
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| posted on 18/1/08 at 12:45 PM |
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I think you're referring to the 905, I meant the 908 from 2007.
Doug. 1TG
Sports Car Builders WA
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Dom9
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| posted on 18/1/08 at 01:04 PM |
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Sorry Doug - I do mean the 905 Evo!
I am not a big fan of anything 'sans' petrol... But the 908 does look fantastic!!
I see what they have done with the screen and it does indeed look very interesting... Trying to pull out of junctions with a load of distortion on a
highly curved windscreen would be a nightmare though.
Perhaps you could vary the glass thickness to reduce the effect... Think that would be getting into very expensive territory then though!
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Dom9
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| posted on 18/1/08 at 02:47 PM |
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I have been talking more with Fran at RCR and the more I think about it, the more difficult it would be to get this thing road registered. If we think
about what the SVA regs entail and the fact that no matter how high I raise the car up, I am unlikely to ever be able to get the headlights high to
enough to pass that test... I should probably just go ahead and say I am building a track only car and get on with it!
That would instantly get rid of the perspex screen problem as I could purchase one from Derek or use whatever comes with the body I eventually
find.
I could also do something silly with the engine and gearbox... I always keep an eye on parts in the race car forums and I have had my eye on one of
these for a while... At about £8.5k they seem like excellent value, but they may need quite a lot to get them running, such as dry sump systems etc
etc and find a transaxle that would work, but oh my, how good what it be?
New N/A Indy V8
I could totally see my budget spiralling out of control!
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Rogue Se7ens
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| posted on 18/1/08 at 03:49 PM |
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Dom9, I didn't mean to guide the discussion just toward the glass problem, just wondered what you had in mind. That 962 body looks quite nice,
proper ribbing on the inside, but at 12.7k I would have to keep looking, and Ilmor V8, wow, now we're talking, but then again what is it going
to take to get it running and keep it going. Maybe you can ask an IRL pit crew to show up at the track to give a hand. Overall, looks like you are
finding a number of options.
Personally, even though it would be a lot of work the Goup C bodies are rather basic in their shape, and if you were to make a plug you could probably
use a number of nearly flat panels, not many compound curves, at least it looks to be easier than say some of the 1960s and 70s race cars that others
have done.
[Edited on 18/1/08 by Rogue Se7ens]
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Fred W B
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| posted on 18/1/08 at 04:21 PM |
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Okay, you could say I'm baised, but I think that the late 60's pre wing era sports race cars are the last that you could make a replica of
to reasonbly run on the road.
Once you get to recent wings and ground effect cars the tiny ground clearance, minimal suspension travel and very high rate springs you would have to
run to get the car to look "right" would make them very impractiable on the road.
Still want to see you build this though
Cheers
Fred W B
You can do it quickly. You can do it cheap. You can do it right. – Pick any two.
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Dom9
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| posted on 18/1/08 at 04:36 PM |
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Thanks guys, no apologies necessary about steering the conversation towards the glass problem... When you look at the headlight issue and the things
Fred has just pointed out, it would seem to suggest that the only real way forward is to build a track only car...
Hence the reason for looking at track only engines! Most of the wear comes from high rpm, if you reduced the rpm on the engines and maybe even changed
the cams to something slightly better through the mid-range, I imagine you could get a few thousand miles out of those engines as the Indy cars must
run 100's of miles on the ovals at full throttle virtually all the way round!
Anyway, that's really only food for thought... It's just that getting one of those to run and he says that he has ECU's etc would
appear to cost no more than a nicely built LS7 say, but much, much less weight...
Then again, I guess we would be into custom bellhousings, oil systems, flywheels and clutches etc etc... I think a nicely tuned quad cam V8 would suit
this project down to the ground and the Lexus V8's appear very robust and tuneable!
Don't worry, no one will put me off building this, it nmight take a few years though but I will get it moving this year at the very least!
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Rogue Se7ens
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| posted on 18/1/08 at 04:41 PM |
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I have wanted to drive a Group C car on the streets since they first came out, but I will say that are not near as sexy as say a T70, P3, or even
GT40... I think what I like about the cars is their relatively simple design. Actually the car looks like a big flat block with a tapered nose and
windscreen, but they look purpose built. I even prefer the shape of the 962 over the photo of the Pug. But as mentioned the practicality for road
use is probably lacking, though if I could find the backing I would build one and drive it.
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Syd Bridge
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| posted on 18/1/08 at 05:57 PM |
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The Peugeot screens aren't glass either. Specially coated plastic. The coating is a development of what goes on spectacles for the
'anti-scratch' coating, only thicker.
I'm going to build a roadgoing 905 one day. Maybe??
Cheers,
Syd.
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Puk
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| posted on 18/1/08 at 09:56 PM |
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Must be possible
How about aiming for for 962 rev1.0 - the track day car to be followed by 962 rev2.0 - the road menace. If Dauer solved the problem then it must be
achievable.
As for headlight heights didn't his cars have air rams to raise the ride height for speed bumps & MOTs? EVO tested it years ago but I
don't recall the details.
Before you judge a guy, walk a mile in his shoes. Then when you judge him, you're a mile a way and you've nicked his shoes.
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stevebubs
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| posted on 18/1/08 at 11:56 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Dom9
The glass issue could be a big problem especially if I want to take the car on the road but how much really does it cost to get a one-off
windscreen made? £1000's? I guess you would probably want at least 2 or 3 though, to make sure that you have spares if/ when one becomes chipped
or broken!
I believe Ricky Evans motorsport will make custom screens for you (so long as you can supply a template).
Minimum order is I believe 10 screens, but the unit cost is nowhere near the 1,000s mark.
Oh - and they can make them heated, too....
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Doug68
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| posted on 19/1/08 at 05:11 AM |
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Whats the issue with headlamp height?
Whats the SVA requirement?
Here in Australia home of possibly the most PITA set of rules for self construction.
The rule is that for signal, dipped and parking beam they must be between 350mm and 1200mm from the ground (I assume at the bottom edge of the
lamp).
Tyre diameter will be ~20" plus clearance for suspension movement and crap build up ( say 4" . So that gives a range of 10" to fit
the lamps in without having to modify the bodywork to fit the lamps in?
[Edited on 19/1/08 by Doug68]
[Edited on 19/1/08 by Doug68]
Doug. 1TG
Sports Car Builders WA
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Hammerhead
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| posted on 19/1/08 at 02:30 PM |
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Hi Dom9, like the look of this project.
With regards to having a body plug cnc machined, are you familiar with dpcars.net? Dennis' car is a smaller scale but is a scratch designed
body.
Keep us posted on your progress.
edit to say Ultimer GTR Windscreens are £566.00 I guess they are road legal.
[Edited on 19/1/08 by Hammerhead]
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thomas4age
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| posted on 19/1/08 at 10:15 PM |
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Syd in other words the stuff we all want to use, but are not allowed to by SVA rules.....
Grtz Thomas
PS Beppe, you're also a dutchman? been reading the KCC forum latley to come up with the lumpy?
If Lucas made guns, Wars wouldn't start either.
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andygtt
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| posted on 20/1/08 at 09:35 AM |
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There is a heated version of the Ultima windscreen available (not from the factory) for around £450.....
There is also a guy in Florida (steve knows him) who is doing a similar project using the rare Mazda le mans body. I will try to do some digging to
see were he is with it.
[Edited on 20/1/08 by andygtt]
Andy
please redefine your limits.
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ceebmoj
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| posted on 20/1/08 at 10:27 AM |
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hi there some what late to the thread if you do deside to order bits from (http://members.shaw.ca/p962/p2.html). Could you find out how mutch a set of
monocouple patterns are as if thay are afordoble and you would include them in youer order I would like a set to look at how pepol have built
monocoups.
blake
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beppesignori
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| posted on 20/1/08 at 03:25 PM |
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quote:
PS Beppe, you're also a dutchman? been reading the KCC forum latley to come up with the lumpy?
Danish actually..in exile in Scotland.
See you are a fan of the Lexus engine as well. Cant think of a better option. One day my LS will have to be sacrificed so I can use its engine for my
next project...
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Dom9
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| posted on 21/1/08 at 10:20 AM |
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Good morning chaps, just reading through the thread as I was offline this weekend... I have gone back and edited the costs of Derek's bodywork
as he only likes to give costs once someone has made an enquiry, which is fine with me, and apologies to him.
For those that did see the costs, Derek pointed out to me that the cost I had for shipping was just for the crates, shipping would be even more,
though how much more I don't know. So the costs certainly do start to add up, despite the bodywork being fairly reasonable. It definitely shows
you that you are better getting something local, though I may end up with no choice.
Which reminds me, it's 10 days 'til I have to pay my tax bill... And the 31st just happens to be Lou's birthday as well! I can see
this being an expensive month!
Andy... Let me know if you find out anything more about this car: "There is also a guy in Florida (steve knows him) who is doing a similar
project using the rare Mazda le mans body. I will try to do some digging to see were he is with it."
ceebmoj - Do you mean chassis plans for the moncoque?
Beppe - Where abouts in Scotland are you?
Have skimmed through kb58's Kimini book a couple of times this weekend and it's interesting but I am not sure it has taught me anything I
haven't learned from other books and misses a lot of the detail, understandably, that say a suspension design book, or chassis design book
has...
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Syd Bridge
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| posted on 21/1/08 at 08:23 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug68
Whats the issue with headlamp height?
Whats the SVA requirement?
Here in Australia home of possibly the most PITA set of rules for self construction.
The rule is that for signal, dipped and parking beam they must be between 350mm and 1200mm from the ground (I assume at the bottom edge of the
lamp).
[Edited on 19/1/08 by Doug68]
Better go check your numbers again Doug, before you make a big blunder.
ADR 13/00- Dipped Beam max ht 1200-min ht 500.
That's 500mm minimum height for headlights, same as for UK Construction and Use regs.
Cheers,
Syd.
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