I have purchased a lowered sump and baffle plate for the blackbird engine but have seen and heard of these engines suffering from oil starvation and then BANG.

do you reccomend a accusump and if so where best to get one and where would be the best place to plum this into.

or do you think just the sump and Baffle will do the job??????

or if you have any other sudgetions that will not frighten the bank manager they would be most welcome.


Cheers

If you are taking it on track and its in a front engine longitudinal orientation (ie not the same way as it sits in the bike) then having heard of many birds going bang like this, I honestly think the only way to be safe is to dry sump it, even engines with accusumps have had problems in front engined cars, let alone ones with baffle plates.

Hiya INDY...

Without knowing what your intended use, is I'd agree with D'Engine Man...

However, if you're not tracking it... chances are it'll be ok sumped and baffled.

LOL Im no expert on the blackbird, its just that I discovered the Yahoo BEC list and started building mine about 4 years ago when the 'bird was more popular, so Ive heard a lot of the horror stories and even witnessed two 'bird engine'd cars (I think with accusumps) go pop on the same corner of the same circuit (Anglesey) on the same day, both suffering from starvation to the same part of the engine (No.3 big end I think)

yes will deffinately want to track the car thats what they are made for.

dry sump i cannot locate a supplier for blackbirds and was advised accusump the best alternative to this.

but donot want the first outing to be a new engine.

Surley the same question applies for the ZX12 lump as well.

so i guess its you pay your money and take your choice.

i just got of the phone to a friend who works at dax and he runs a bussa turbo std everything and not even chop the sump and has no probs also he said the zx12 dax is the same.

who do you belive??? i suppose your wright chris poss leave and hope for the best ?????

Tracking eh? Options as Chris says... drysumping isn't a guarantee against oil starvation on these engines on long corners.

Take a chance - I would - replace when necessary...

Ive run Bird engines for 3 years now, I'm 1/2 way between Chris and Gennisis on this one, don't even think about going near a track with just a baffle but I would be happy too do so with an accusump, pace do a dry sump for the bird but its mega bucks, if you do fit an accusump don't fit it in the oil cooler line, (is this where the blown birds had there plumbed in Chris?) because the oil cooler runs at reduced pressure and then dumps back too sump without going near the bearings on a bird, it needs too be plumbed in where the oil pressure switch is fitted anywhere else it is doing nothing.

#3 is always the one too go unless the engine is modded, requires the balancer shaft removing, oil ways blocking and crank machining, problem is #3 and the balancer shaft share the same oil feed so #3 starves 1st.

If you value your wallet don't go on track without minimum accusump.

Thanks chris good way to start the new year with a big bill and havent even used the car yet.

may be a possability to change the engine was hoping this would be last resort as it rund quite well not as quick as the zx12 but great fun and also i have heard r1s are a ig to wire up?????.

maybe i will sell the whole car as is great on the road ust would like to get on a track at some point.

I blew a blackbird engine with a shortened and baffled sump on the way to my sva test.

I rebuild the engine and fitted a dry sump system and have been doing trackdays and plenty of road miles since than without any problem.

Thanks jon good advice where is the best place to get a accusump from and diagrams for fitting as would be worthless otherwse.



thanks in advance

My mate blew a bird when it was still in the bike! oil/crank related problem. Nice Mr Honda san gave him a nice shiny new one for free, so i suppose it don't count.

The trouble is, you can get frightened into fitting a dry sump with all the stories when it might not need one.

Heres a possible solution. Run it with a chopped and baffled sump but be sure to fit a quality oil pressure/temperature gauge. That way, you could track it and also keep a close eye on the oil pressure. If you see a drop in pressure on corners, come off track and don't go back until you've fitted an accusump at least.

Just a thought

Thanks hellfire any ideas where to locate an accusump from would be great.

ill visit demo tweaks for oil press gauge.

Any furhter suggestions would be great from the allseein all knowing locost clbub members.

Cheers
Sean

Sean,

have a look on think auto website.

Also keep an eye on e-bay, as they sometimes come up for sale now and again.

Phil

quote:

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if you do fit an accusump don't fit it in the oil cooler line, (is this where the blown birds had there plumbed in Chris?)

---

quote:

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i just got of the phone to a friend who works at dax and he runs a bussa turbo std everything and not even chop the sump and has no probs also he said the zx12 dax is the same.

who do you belive??? i suppose your wright chris poss leave and hope for the best ????

---

quote:

---

Heres a possible solution. Run it with a chopped and baffled sump but be sure to fit a quality oil pressure/temperature gauge. That way, you could track it and also keep a close eye on the oil pressure

---

I realise it's a risky strategy Chris but it may give some indication of how the engine is coping before it goes bang altogether.

I believe your friend with the Stuart Taylor ZX12R was talked into fitting a dry sump and afterwards, wished he'd stuck with the chopped/baffled sump - unless that was just a story he made up, in order to sell the sump. He certainly didn't mention surge being the reason for dry sumping. But then again why would he - he wouldn't have sold the sump if he had

I will be visiting the Autosport international show on Sunday 15th so perhaps they may have some advice on what to do and speak to some people who may know and think auto are exhibiting and could pick up a sump there it looks like the way to go to have the % reduced of the BIG BANG.

all i want to do is race the bloody car round a track all this i hope its worth it.???

Cheers Sean

a mate of mine has been using a blackbird for grasstracking for a couple of years now, mounted the correct way with original sump profile ( i.e the deep well ) and a baffle plate, he found halfway through each season it needed a rebuild due to oil starvation of no.3 ( i think ) and they only do 3 - 4 laps a race round a half mile oval

i would think an accusump would be the minimum requirement if venturing to the track ( i have no personal experiance of them but have heard they work well )

we have been using the pace dry sump setups on the zx12s and the quality is superb, think the tad lmp is also on this system, but is quite costly

another option

alternative dry sump system

a customer sent me a link to a place that do a dry sump system for zx12 busa and blackbird he priced up the busa version and it was £600 plus vat which is pretty reasonable, although i have no experiance of this setup it may be worth a look as its accusump money

dont forget though there will be 2 -3 hundred quid in aeroquip pipes fittings, oil cooler etc

best regards

marc

I'd advise that you use a dry sump and keep the blackbird motor as its a good engine.

I got all the stuff for my pace dry sump set up for about £800. WRT the pipework you could always use hydraulic fittings which you could get made up at an agricultural engineers for not a lot.

Marc, tell you mate to get the mods done I described above, I'm surprised he hasn't as its grass track racers that put me onto it, only prob is i cant as the engine as you are probably aware as to be standard for the 750mc RGB series.

quote:

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Originally posted by INDY BIRD
yes will deffinately want to track the car thats what they are made for.

dry sump i cannot locate a supplier for blackbirds and was advised accusump the best alternative to this.

but donot want the first outing to be a new engine.

---

Hellfire - Apologies for needlessly raising your suspicions, thinking about it his car/setup isnt a good example at all as he never actually saw any prof of surge, but mentioning ZX12s bought his car to mind.

To be truely accurate and if I remember correctly Nigel only did one or maybe two trackdays in his car with the wet sump and having seen logging evidence from a couple of other BEC owners with various seemingly bulletproof engines (R1 and blade etc - not ZX12) that showed a small amount of oil pressure reduction in certain circumstances even on these semingly bulletproof engines, he was concerned and maybe slightly paranoid that being an expensive unproven engine at that time (3 years ago) that he may be getting it too, and possibly on a larger more destructive scale. He didnt have any real proof either way and when dropping an end cap there was no signs on the bearings, but after seeking advice (I dont know who from - could have been a dry sump manufacturer for all I know!) he decided he didnt want to risk it and fitted the dry sump.

As you say he did later regret this as Pace who supplied it caused him no end of problems, their parts almost caused a potentially engine destroying failure due to poor manufacturing / design, and probably indirectly drove him to selliing the whole car in the end as he'd invested a lot of time and money in getting it right and it was forever in bits.

In Nigel's defence Im sure he didnt mislead you though, if he was trying to do that I dont think he would have told you about him converting to dry sump at all. The risk of oil surge is the obvious reason to fit one so thats the first thing that would put off any potential buyer of a modified wet sump IMHO. Anyway, its an off-the-shelf part that could have been bought (from Mistral?) and they'd not give any guarantees but you'd assume they must have put some R&D into it and that it did its job to a reasonable level.

Perhaps a fairer example would be the RGB guys who I believe have tried wet sump ZX12s but ended up dry sumping, although I dont know much info on those setups and they may have dry sumped from the off?

cheers

Chris

[Edited on 4/1/06 by ChrisGamlin]

No apology needed Chris. It's just one of those things that your mind is constantly wrestling with - Dry sump or no dry sump. To date, I haven't heard of any ZX12 Engines letting go on track WITH a baffled/wet sump, although I am aware of a few that have been tracked and seem to have done OK.

Having said that, I haven't looked too hard for ZX12's which have let go.

There seems to be concrete evidence that a Blackbird could do with either an accusump or a dry sump but similar info seems to be pretty scarce on ZX12's. Thats probably because most people with ZX12's have dry sumped them. Of course, it makes sense to fit a dry sump to improve your chances of protecting your engine but does it really need one?

I guess only time will tell........................

What is this site yahoo BEC is this the web address and is it a site for good information on these type of questions can you give me the exact web address would be very gratefull.

Cheers

still none the wiser after all these comments.

Message for JON who does this type of engine work on blackbirds and how much are we talking £££££.

Thanks for the suggetions

See my sig......

Its the original BEC forum really, was up and running pretty much from the start of the BEC "phenomenon".

Its not a web forum and is best used via e-mail (mailing list style) so it doesnt suit everyone's taste, and its not got the same depth of knowledge that it had maybe 2-3 years ago but its still a very useful source of info.

Its quite amusing to look back in the archives and read some of the very first conversations between Barry (the chap who started it) and a couple of the others like Ed Cane, they are both good friends of mine now so its quite amusing how little they knew at the time

[Edited on 5/1/06 by ChrisGamlin]

quote:

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Originally posted by Hellfire
No apology needed Chris. It's just one of those things that your mind is constantly wrestling with - Dry sump or no dry sump. To date, I haven't heard of any ZX12 Engines letting go on track WITH a baffled/wet sump, although I am aware of a few that have been tracked and seem to have done OK.

---

Cheers chaps for the advice after pondering on it and the uncertainty of the engine on a track looks like the best solution is as chris suggested.

Sell the blackbird engine.

look out for this in the next few months if interested in the engine it runs very well as i discovered, i took the car out today and its AWESOME its a bit damp but wheelspin in gears 1/2/3 is great fun???.


Think it will have to be the ZX12 next so will keep my eye out for an engine as the money spent for the power gains is imppresive.

cheers hears to the next project.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hellfire
Of course, it makes sense to fit a dry sump to improve your chances of protecting your engine but does it really need one?

I guess only time will tell........................

---

But surely any gain here is swiftly cancelled out by the excess weight of the dry sump kit.................................

quote:

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Originally posted by Hellfire
But surely any gain here is swiftly cancelled out by the excess weight of the dry sump kit.................................

---

I do realise that if the engine does go bang, its gonna cost a lot more than a dry sump kit alone but the flip side of the coin is that we save £1,200 (approx)

To date I have heard/seen no proof to suggest the ZX12R definitely needs dry sumping.

We are prepared to take the risk and will find out for sure one way or the other.

G-man, have you had your car on a rolling road yet? It'll be interesting to see just how much horsepower you actually have, after doing all those mods

Havent had the chance yet, my car arrived in cyprus last week and I am off to see it through customs this week...

Once its done and I have sorted a few of the last jobs, I will see if I can find a rolling road out here....

Should be about 20bhp up on stock if the exhaust system is the right length, so we will see...

Well after alot of consideration i have purchased a accusump from think automotive.

they advised me to plum this in via a sandwhich plate between the oil filter.

they also said that could plumb via the oil pressure switch as jon suggested but this
can be very restictive.

any thoughts on this from the people that know.

as you all said you are looking at £1500 for a dry sump and most where belt driven which i am unhappy with ,what if the belt breaks???? dead engine.

running the accusump with the mistral baffled sump which they advise to run with 10% extra oil to cope with the sump mods i hope will reduce the risk of the big bang??

thanks in advance guys for your interest and comments.

Sean

The blackird scavenge pump is gear driven from the end of the crank. You replace the ignitor cover with a billet cover with the scavenge pump mounted on it. The cam sprocket on the crank is modified to incorporate a gear to drive the pump.

With regard to the mounting of the scavenge pump, I know there are 2 oil circuits on the blackbird driven by different rotors. Have a look in the manual to make sure that if you mount behind the oil filter it will keep the pressure at the crank. As previously said above you may have to "T" in where the pressure switch is.



Carnut

you can use a sandwich plate but i would go the route i suggested, the only thing that can be restricted is there profits for not selling you a sandwich plate, maybe they think your gonna try and feed it thru the small hole like you find in a pressure gauge but you dont, you buy a 1/2" hydraulic fitting, feed the accusump with a 1/2" hose and drill and tap the fitting too suit your pressure gauge sender, i can take a pic of my adaptor if it helps cos what i wrote prob makes no sense.

Edit to add
Carnut, do you dump your oil from the cooler back too the dry sump tank or too the engine ?

And another edit too add
dont overfill by any % get the accusump up too pressure than close the valve, let the engine stand, check level and fill as normal, overfill could give you clutch slip.

[Edited on 16/1/06 by Jon Ison]

[Edited on 16/1/06 by Jon Ison]

Hi jon

Would be great if you could help with the pictures.

i have already paid for the goods so it will be coming anyway.

if you can help any futher with regards to tapping ie what tool as i have no experience in this area.

Cheers
Sean

will take a pic for you tomorrow, if your in a pickle i could prob knock one up for you and send it at cost, wont be much, well change from a tenner posted.

Hi Jon,

The oil from the oil cooler back to the engine as per standard blackbird but I do dump the oil from the PRV into the tank.

Carnut

the dry sump belts are very strong and it doesnt take much to turn the pump,,i was worried about it at first and checked it all the time but after a while i got fed up of checking it and now only check it before i go out in the car along with the sump plug.
iv found a few marks in the pump gear when little stones have gone round but thats about it

here's a pic, crap quality but its getting dark already in garage, when i tried flash i just got a white screen so i had too use torch........

you should be able too make out a 90* 1/2" elbow, one half screwed into engine, the open end you see is a 1/2" feed too the accusump (so not restrictive at 1/2" and the blank end is drilled and tapped too suit oil pressure sender.

[Edited on 17/1/06 by Jon Ison]
Rescued attachment accusump.JPG

hi JON

Thanks for the pics that helps alot.

why is this better than the sandwich between the oil filter any idea.

if it is better i would be greatfull if could make one and i will pay for it, i will also be fitting a oil pressure guage but where do fit the oil pressure warning light switch??.

thanks in advance

Sean

I'm not sure it is better, but its definitely as good and cheaper, the oil pressure sender you see in the pic is a duel one pressure and light the two terminals are out of shot.

Hi jon

As i have already got the sandwich plate should i stay with this as they will not refund me now.

if not could u2u your tel no to discuss price to make the part in question.

2nd when y first fir the accusump how much oil do you put in the car, do add on the 4 pints extra so it fills the tank.

sorry a bit thick in this area not sure how it exacly works.

chears.

Sean

If you have the plate use it, it wont be a problem as long as you have clearance for your filter on bodywork or chassis rails ect, Ive sent my numbers.

Hello,

Building a ZX12R myself, but the importer here in Holland is Racing with one, and he has a chopped sump, he has the engine for 3 years now.......
He stripped it after 2 years because he was interested too see hoow it's holding, and there were no part damaged.


Smartripper

Smartripper, are you talking about Luke, or someone else?
Also, do you mean he has an accusump or just a chopped sump?

Phil