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max bhp on an english axle
vinnie_b23 - 9/8/11 at 04:16 PM

Anybody got some reliable figures what an escort axle can handle.
I'm goin for an Sr20 setup, 300ish Japanese shire's...will an english cope?

Oddified - 9/8/11 at 04:49 PM

If you have the grip to put all the ponies on the floor, then it's going to have a short life or break.

Ian

tomgregory2000 - 9/8/11 at 05:14 PM

its the torque that breaks things, horse power wont

The sr20 engine is a torque monster and will no dought destroy the axle if you have the grip to put the power down

RACER101 - 9/8/11 at 06:04 PM

I ran a 260 BHP 2.4Ltr Holbay Pinto in a Mk2 Escort race car for a couple of years and the English axle didn't give me any problems at all.

Although it was running slick tyres these weren't overly wide (8 inch as I recall) or sticky and so much of the power was essentially being "wasted" by spinning up the rears & going sideways which I suspect explains why the axle survived.

The combination of wide sticky tyres and lots of torque and 300BHP would soon destroy an English in my opinion.

An Atlas axle would definately be a safer bet.

Cheers,
John

plutos3 - 9/8/11 at 06:44 PM

I did not use a english axal with my CA18det because back in the days of 3ltr cortinas they eat the half shafts and that was only 130 bhp. I have used an atlas axal its much stronger.

MikeRJ - 9/8/11 at 06:47 PM

260bhp Pinto? If that wasn't turbo'd those must have been shetland ponies.

vinnie_b23 - 9/8/11 at 06:56 PM

Hmmm shall be interesting.
May have to go back to the drawing board and use the Nissans diff too.
The kit is a champion base and iv already got the axle but with it not havin individual suspension going to need some major mods.
The original setup I had was vvc/type 9 which the axle would have handled but now its a different ball game.

DIY Si - 9/8/11 at 07:12 PM

If you have the mounts for a live axle, but need something stronger, what about going to a de-Dion set up? That way you can use the diff you have and then design a de-Dion tube to fit. Or don't bother designing one at all, just use the Rorty designs. That's pretty much what I'm doing to my car Sprite.

Incidentally, what happened to the VVC/Type 9? That's what I'm putting in the Sprite, and I'm always looking for more/go faster bits.

Neville Jones - 9/8/11 at 07:14 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
260bhp Pinto? If that wasn't turbo'd those must have been shetland ponies.


If my old memory serves me right, I believe a Holbay head for the pinto had 4 valves per cylinder and twin o'head cams before Cosworth did their thing.

Still a much valued head to historic rally enthusiasts.

Cheers,
Nev.

[Edited on 9/8/11 by Neville Jones]

RACER101 - 9/8/11 at 07:35 PM

260 BHP verified by Gerard Sauer & Dave Walker in Cars & Car Conversions magazine (back in the day!).........I might even still have a copy of the magazine.............job for tomorrow to go and find it I think :-) Most powerful non turbo/supercharged pinto they ever tested as I recall.

2.4 Ltr, made by Holbay Racing Engines. Steel Crank, forged pistons, billet ali roller rockers, twin 50s etc etc.................revved to over 9K which really is a lot for a pinto.

Quite a bit of kit really but, as with every pinto it weighed a ton and it had a habit of breaking rockers and dropping valves if pushed to the red line too often. And the price of the Holbay parts (who I *think* did some F1 engine stuff in the 70's) was enough to make a grown man cry.

I often wonder what happened to the car............I swapped it for a Westfield. The Escort was a bright yellow Mk2 RS2000 with X-pack arches. I saw it race a few times in the season after I sold it but then it vanished and I haven't seen or heard anything of it for more than 10 years now.

Ah well happy days



Cheers,
John

snapper - 9/8/11 at 08:00 PM

Holbay Pintos were a legend putting out more than a Cosworth turbo well before Cosworth were involved, I seem to remember a second hand price tag of 12k+

vinnie_b23 - 9/8/11 at 08:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by DIY Si
what happened to the VVC/Type 9? That's what I'm putting in the Sprite, and I'm always looking for more/go faster bits.

A friend is interested whos building a gibbs locost. Good setup too, out of a caterham so its got an acusump system shortened+baffled sump.
Il check if he's still keen and let you know.
Il have a look into your advice.
How stronger will a quaife LSD make it. Obviously not goin to stop the shaft chewing up but its an option beings I'm going to have to run a LSD anyhow.

beaver34 - 9/8/11 at 09:33 PM

I using a 1.6 turbo and a English axle, not on the road yet but will see how I goes, if it shits itself I'll shorten an atlas axle to fit

In short no one can tell you if it will work or not

daviep - 9/8/11 at 10:16 PM

quote:
Originally posted by tomgregory2000
its the torque that breaks things, horse power wont



Pub myth.

I suggest you read up on the relationship between torque and horsepower and then think about it in relation to a propshaft.

Davie

b14wrc - 10/8/11 at 11:12 AM

Not sure i would want to use such an old skool axle - (live axle) when using a nice modern engine like what you have....


plus is the live axle not really heavy?? mod the chassis to take the nissan diff and hubs.

RACER101 - 10/8/11 at 11:59 AM

Jeez, I must be getting old!! It was June 1995 that my old Escort was tested by CCC.

Description
Description

And I lied too..................the engine made 261BHP and 241lb.ft torque and all that with a single overhead cam.

Description
Description

Scanned copy of the article in my photo archive if anyone is interested

The realisation that sooooooo many years have passed is making me feel very ancient indeed.

Cheers,
John

beaver34 - 10/8/11 at 03:34 PM

quote:
Originally posted by b14wrc
Not sure i would want to use such an old skool axle - (live axle) when using a nice modern engine like what you have....


plus is the live axle not really heavy?? mod the chassis to take the nissan diff and hubs.


live axle is lighter in english form than sierra independant IIRC

vinnie_b23 - 10/8/11 at 04:24 PM

That's impressive john! Some hard evidence too that an English can cope with 260bhp ...sorry 261 haha.
What internals did your axle have, diff and ratio.
To be honest the 300 bhp is a maximum estimate, as it stands the engine will be more like 270-280 but that's with the viscous fan, which Il be binnin and standard injectors 370cc which are pretty much maxed out so I was going for some 550 but I might just save the pennies for an lsd and tyres.

dlatch - 10/8/11 at 05:14 PM

tbh i think it will survive if not used hard.
but really that for me anyway defeats the point of having the extra power in the first place.
i know andy white used to snap uprated half shafts for fun with just a X flow.
so the main reason for failure will be high grip levels and if you intend to make use of that extra power a upgrade seems very wise to me.

vinnie_b23 - 10/8/11 at 06:04 PM

quote:
Originally posted by dlatch
tbh i think it will survive if not used hard.
but really that for me anyway defeats the point of having the extra power in the first place.
i know andy white used to snap uprated half shafts for fun with just a X flow.
so the main reason for failure will be high grip levels and if you intend to make use of that extra power a upgrade seems very wise to me.

Yea I know where your comin, it would be piece of mind being able to plant the right foot and know its capable of handling the power.
I might just give it a go, see how long it lasts and learn the hard way. The chassis is almost rolling and its took me forever to get to this stage.

RACER101 - 10/8/11 at 06:08 PM

It was a loooooong time ago and, frankly I can't remember what diff ratio the axle ran.

However, the CCC article says that it was a 3.9:1 and that is probably correct.

What I do remember is that the diff was a plate type limited slip diff made by TranX who I think are still around. Half shafts (incredibly) were just bog standard items.

Bear in mind that the axle was only located with the standard links to the diff housing and leaf springs. This meant that there was lots of axle wind up going on, which I believe also helped to preserve the diff and half shafts (the whole assembly was acting a bit like a spring and absorbing the shock loadings). Had it all been nailed down tight with a 5 link set up I don't think it would have lasted half as long.

Cheers,
John

PS. I never had any axle breakages in 4 years of racing and the only thing I ever remember replacing was a set of lsd plates (once) when the diff started to get a bit loose.

[Edited on 10/8/11 by RACER101]

puzzigully - 12/8/11 at 05:38 AM

Guys,

I have 300hp, going to an English axle, running 4.125:1 ratio, on slicks with button clutch.

Not treated at all well as it is track-only car

Pulled out diff centre for inspection after 3 years and the pinion was trashed!!
How it was still working was beyond me...

BUT no breakages, axle splines were OK etc.

It is going to depend how brutal you are though and inspect on a regular basis.

vinnie_b23 - 12/8/11 at 02:13 PM

Another hi power english runner then, in a locost?
What engine and how many bt talktalks was is pumpin?
The Sr will be putting out 300 ft-lbs easy which is the worrying thing.
I know of a complete rear end from sierra still on subframe which I might have a punt at.
I think it will be interestin to see how long the axle does last though. Got nothin to loose.

puzzigully - 15/8/11 at 01:47 AM

Engine is a Toyota 3SGE (BEAMS version out of an Altezza)

In an Aussie ARROW clubman(which used to be a Westfield manufactured under license in Oz).

It was dyno-ed on a rolling road, so gives rear-wheel hp and "tractive effort" - that is a couple of load cells that determine how much force the car is using trying to spit the dyno out the back
So not possible to determine the Torque as such, in the terms you're after.

But by the seat-of-the-pants dyno, let me tell you..... it is HEAPS!