Are ythere any paint experts out there!????

i have preped and degreased all pannels, etched all alu and firerglass body work with Bodyline 2K etch and top coated with ICI 383 paint as recommedned by my uncle who is a coach painrter with 45 yr experiance, also recomended by supplier as well.... any way the paint is pealing of the alu, can rub it off with my finger!!

The etch has stuct like it should but where it has contacted the top coat it has reacted causing a lach of adhesion!!

no one has seen this before, this is the 3rd car that i have painted, previous 2 with no problems.... any idesa why the paint is peeling???

Cheers, Bob.

i also am a coachbuilder not with 45 years under my belt though.the top coat you have used, ici 383 is a polyurathane top coat,which is a comercial vehicle type paint.which shines like a sh*t house door when it is put on then generaly fades,due to the fact of chemicals in car and truck washes etc.it has probably reacted with the etch primer the primer may not have been dry properly,or the top coat thinners might have bittern into the etch causing it to swell up as if it has had paint stripper put on it.what i would try to do is stripp off all the top coat sand down the etch and start again.coat it up with etch let it dry (overnight)then lightly scuff it off with 600 or 800 wet and dry.for a top coat i would use two pack paint although a little more expensive the results are a lot better.and if things do go tits up it is a lot easier to put right.you are also supposed to use the same brand primer as the topcoat .i.e. i.c.i. incase anything go,s wrong ,so you stand a chance when you tell the supplier his paint is crap and he sometimes supplies you with a bit more f.o.c.you should be able to purchase a cheap two pack for the price of ici 383 because its not cheap,unless your uncle had it away from work that is

I did a fantastic job of spraying a metro turbo once.

Did all the undercoats with primer surfacer in a can. Acrylic based.

Put the top coats on with cellulose.


Big mistake.

If the paint was slightly impacted, it didnt scratch - it just chipped lumps off.

The primer wasnt compatible with the top coat.

Use compatable systems or all your work will be for nothing.

My car wasnt exactly losing paint as you watched, but it worried me and inspired me to sell it for 500 quid - good for the time 6 or so years back.


atb


steve

also

about 2 pack.

I have always heard that its lethal to use at home without the proper breathing gear.


Is it as bad as is said?

I didnt use it cos I would like to live to see the results and cyanide fumes in my garage might not have allowed that.

Steve,

What I was told (and it may be a 2-pack of lies ) was that any droplets of cellulose paint that get into your lungs will eventually get broken down and disposed of.

With 2-pack paints they're in there forever - eventually resulting in a silicosis-type affliction. Mind you - 'iso-cyanate' doesn't sound too pleasant either!

I have some iso-cyanate chromate primer at home, which I only brush on. this is the green-yellow stuff you see sprayed on aircraft in the factories. While using it I wear a mask with filters designed for paint vapour, and disposable gloves, and I use it either outdoors, or in the doorway of the garage (it stinks).

Bl**dy good primer, though!

David

Looks like, as I thought, best avoided. I was under the impression that the cyanide element was more instant - ie - stops you breathing.

My father has only 30 - 40% lung efficency caused by smoking. It almost kills him getting up stairs. Its worth looking after your lungs.


atb

steve

i thought that proper 2 pack was already banned form amatuer use

and the stuff u get now is the same to paint as lrp is to petrol

quote:

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Originally posted by johnston
i thought that proper 2 pack was already banned form amatuer use

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MEK is also bloody good at glueing or should i say melting plactic togrther!! well thats if its the same stuff as in my garage!!

Correct me if im wrong but you cant brush apply 2pack?? im brush painting the top coat none of this spraying stuff!!

still duno wot to do with me peeling paint!!! if i leave it it may go away!!!

the effects of 2k paint if used without an air fed mask are cumulative, you dont die the first time you use it and probably not the second, but somewhere along the line you will start spraying and never see the results. THE STUFF IS LETHAL UNLESS YOU STAY TO THE SAFETY GUIDELINES.

You should also paint in a temp controlled booth, the hardeners are not designed to make the paint go off by themselves, but need the heat of the paint oven to fully cure.

If you want good results, buy the paint as a system, etch, primer, isloators, hardeners, solvents and colour coats all from the same paint maker. You supplier is legally obliged to supply HSAW data on the paint, and also data sheets on how to use it properly, including viscosity requirements etc.

Even using the wrong degreasant between coats can destroy the paint adhesion, because the primers are designed to 'grab' the first liquid they come into contact with. I once ruined a BMW respray by wet flatting a new 2K high build primer, it was designed to be dry flatted but smart arse here didn't read the data sheet.

The best systems are 'wet on wet' which is what it says, you just pile on the coats of primer then colour coats and clears one over the other, just observing a critical recoat time between coats, then baking the whole thing for about 30 mins

Yeah, 2-pack is nasty stuff. Its not got cyanide in it but the cyanate bit is in the same group of chemicals and it is a respiritory poison. You need a mask with an air feed from outside your booth, and therefore need a booth.

Some people play it down and say it isn't that bad but I wouldn't take the risk. 2-pack is wonderful stuff compared to the rest, more shiny, harder wearing, less coats needed etc. but if you are spraying in your garage and dont mind spending a bit longer spraying and polishing you should get almost as good results from cellulose and you shouldn't die in the process.

Besides, I imagine most locost builders spend as much time polishing their pride and joy as they do driving it. Using 2pack means you miss out on hours of polishing fun.

Forgive my stupidity, but if you have to bake 2k paint, can you use it on Fibreglass? I understood fibreglass shrunk if baked, or do you just bake it at a lower temperature for longer (gas mark 2 for 30 mins rather than gas mark 3 for 10 mins).

Kingr

The shrinkage is not in the overall size of the moulding, otherwise the Scimitar I keep repairing would be the size of a pedal car by now!

Shrinkage is when the surface imperfections are amplified by the baking process, or more accurately the cooling down afterwards. Every tiny scratch comes out the size of the grand canyon. The other problem is any tiny air bubbles in the gel coat tend to pop and ruin the surface.

We painted the first Avion prototype for Richard Oakes who lives and works quite close to us. The preparation that went into that was ridiculous, but it paid off if anyone has seen this car at the shows (the yellow one)

They dont bake it at a high enough temp to damage the fibreglass, although it might melt rubber trim and stuff.

2-pack works like 2 part adhesive (like epoxy resin in 2 tubes) When tou mix them together a chemical reaction starts which cures the paint. If you remember school science lessons though you'll remember that heat speeds up chemical reactions so when you bake it, it cures faster.

The problem with doing this stuff in your garage is you cant bake it so it will take ages to dry and because you are in your garage and not a booth, you will get all kinds of bits of crap, dust and airbourne insects and so on landing on the paintduring the long drying time. Cellulose drys quicker at normal temps so you dont have sat there wet while it collects whats it the atmosphere for as long.

Remember, we bake complete cars, the only thing it melts are the mars bars and boiled sweets left in the glove box

as a point about 2k paint being possibly banned for amatuer use.....

how is a paint factor gonna know you are an amateur? Some kinda licensing system? Or do you just knock up a fake letterhead on your printer, put on your paint covered overalls, and go and get some pretending to be a pro.

Then, once you have done this, who's gonna find out.

I dont plan on using 2 pack - just wonder how the regulations could ever be enforced for a home sprayer.


atb


Steve

[Edited on 10/1/03 by stephen_gusterson]

quote:

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Originally posted by stephen_gusterson
as a point about 2k paint being possibly banned for amatuer use.....

how is a paint factor gonna know you are an amateur? Some kinda licensing system? Or do you just knock up a fake letterhead on your printer, put on your paint covered overalls, and go and get some pretending to be a pro.

[Edited on 10/1/03 by stephen_gusterson]

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My local paint supplier for 'real car painters' just won't supply paint to anyone walking in off the street. They want to see an official order from a registered company.

Of course, if you should make up a company name and print your own 'official order'...

I guess this is down to liability - if they sell paint to an 'amateur' then they could be liable for any harm. If they sell to a 'company' then that company is responsible for the welfare of its employees.

cheers,

David

Every paint wholesaler has to acount for every gram of VOC (volatile organic compounds) that it sells. If it sell to a registered bodyshop, this is then transfered to the bodyshops VOC acount and it than has to acount for its use or disposal. The bodyshop can reclaim VOC from its acount by returning used VOC (used thinners or cleaning solvents etc).

The bodyshop wants to keep its VOC use to a minimum because there is a sliding scale of HSE and EPA regulations that they have to adhere to depending on the amount of VOC used.

If a paint factor sells a litre of paint it has to book it to someone, cellulose can be booked out to private sale, cellulose and synthetic are getting increasingly hard to get hold of because each factor has to maintain a paint mixing scheme to make the colour that someone orders. This means they have to keep about 2 litres of every tinter to make any colour that might be ordered, the average scheme has about 50-75 tinters, which they have to carry about £3000 for every scheme (2K - you can treble that figure) so they aint going to carry a scheme for a paint line that isnt going to sell enough to justify the maintenance of a mixing scheme.

The time of being able to order a couple of litres of celly to flash over you own car is coming to an end

This means much more business for me!!
Guess where my car is going to be painted!!!! d:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Allanson
The time of being able to order a couple of litres of celly to flash over you own car is coming to an end

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I would imagine that there will be places to get celulose paint for the concievable future, think of it this way : while there may be more shops selling the paint than there are enough customers to justify tints, innevitably some will drop those tints completely, but there will then be few shops and more customers, therefore being profitable once again for the shops to have the tints.

The one thing that could cause problems for this is the regulations on mailing of substances. I suspect it probably can be mailed faily easily, but you may need certifications for the packaging of it. If anything the thinners might be the most dodgy thing as regards mailing, but then, how hard is it to get celulose thinners?

Kingr

Yeah, I suppose if everyone stopped selling celly, then there would be a nice large gap in the market for me to exploit.

It's no loss to locost builders, celly is just about useless on both GRP and aluminium.

synthetic was a much better option as long as you dont want a metallic finish

It's no loss to locost builders, celly is just about useless on both GRP and aluminium.

synthetic was a much better option as long as you dont want a metallic finish, it tends to shear (the metallic particles drift in the substrate to give a hammerite finish)

OOps, I seem to have developed a stutter!!

so, if cellulose inst good for alu or grp and 2k kills you, what are home painters using?

atb

steve

Cellulose is perfectly good for ally and f/glass.

Reliant used cellulose for decades without any problems on their plastic pigs.

As long as you use a good etch primer and surfacer/primer it should be satifactory on aluminium.

Cellulose is a very versatile material to work with.
If you need High gloss then use a base clear laquer over it.

Terry

Dont take my word for it, next time you see a pre 90 Reliant, just look !!

quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Allanson
Dont take my word for it, next time you see a pre 90 Reliant, just look !!

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I said pre '90 because thats when they started using 2K (I wonder why they did that?), if you saw a celly finished Reliant in 91 would see what I mean

I must say I've never heard of any problems with celly over aluminium or grp. Admittedly though that I have never sprayed anything other than steel.

from what I have read, anyone with pro facilites would use 2k every time cos it goes on with less coats and gives a higher gloss. Lots of reasons why reliant might have done this i suppose. So would i if i had a paint shop! when i tried to get a quote on my metro turbo respray it was almost impossible. Sprayers naturally want to do all the prep work, so it gets expensive. Unless you have a massive bank balance, I cant see any other way of doing a home spray than with celly.

can anyone else?

Dont even think of suggesting acrylic cans from halfords!

Or dulux

atb

steve

Steve, I am lucky having access to a large bodyshop to get my car painted, for those that dont, ask the paint supplier to advise which paints to use. I would suggest that you pay for the best materials you can get, dont even think about the budget stuff which is about £15 a litre, and get etch primers to match the material you are painting, one for ally and one for glass. Keep to one manufacturer as the products are more likely to be compatable. Give loads of time to preparation and keep everything clean - use spirit wipe to remove all traces of grease. Vacuum you garage before you start, including the ceiling!!

thats good advice.

I went a bit further when I sprayed my metro.

I bought damp proof course quality PVC sheet and lined the whole garage - roof, sides and floor - with it. Sort of a full body metro condom. I would totally recommend this. By the time you have built your car there is gonna be so much crap in the air and its all gonna suck right on to the paint in your car. Even seen dust in a shaft of sun light......its all gonna texture the car.

atb

steve

I have done the same as Steve many times.
Making a plastic tent is probably the easiest method.

Another tip I would suggest is to damp the floor down first as well. It stops any dust from rising and also attracts some of the airborn dust that you will create.

All you should have inside the tent is the car or object being sprayed. Keep compressor outside.
Also make sure the air temperature is high enough. Painting in the winter is a no-no, unless you have a good sized heated garage. Remember to switch of heaters when painting.

Tac rags although expensive are a must for removing dust before spraying.

Terry