DANMAN
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| posted on 10/5/12 at 06:55 AM |
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Carbon fiber....is it worth it.
Hi guys.
I am considering getting carbon fiber guards and nose cone (perhaps even scuttle) for my Stuart Taylor BEC but I am curious as to the difference in
weight between carbon fiber vs GRP. Has anyone got any info on them.
Dan.
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nick205
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| posted on 10/5/12 at 07:28 AM |
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No direct weight comparisons, but I'd think there may be more cost/performance effective ways of reducing vehicle weight. i.e. losing more
weight for the same money or much more weight for a little more money.
The general rule seems to be to tackle the unsprung weight first with lighter wheels, brakes, hubs etc.
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 10/5/12 at 07:30 AM |
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It does look better than fibreglass, and is stronger but in cars such as ours (most of us), its really just a cosmetic benefit IMO.
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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Wadders
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| posted on 10/5/12 at 07:54 AM |
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I think a lot depends on who supplies the parts. i have a pair of
"carbon fibre" cycle wings. they look nice and were very reasonably priced, but are
only marginally lighter than grp ones. Im guessing they are grp with a carbon top layer?
On the other hand i have a caterham carbon nose cone which would
float away if it was not weighted down :-) It cost the original owner around £600
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Steve Hignett
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| posted on 10/5/12 at 08:52 AM |
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State where you are planning on getting the parts from and I will tell you whether they are lighter than GRP or not...
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twybrow
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| posted on 10/5/12 at 09:13 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DANMAN
Hi guys.
I am considering getting carbon fiber guards and nose cone (perhaps even scuttle) for my Stuart Taylor BEC but I am curious as to the difference in
weight between carbon fiber vs GRP. Has anyone got any info on them.
Dan.
Is it worth it? Well that would depend on what the current limiations on your speed is... With most of us, the driver is by far the biggest influence
on the lap times of our cars. CF bodywork is either for those with too much money, or who are are driving at such a high level, that a small
difference in weight can be seen in the lap times. I doubt very much there are many on this forum where that is true. Therefore it really comes down
to whether you feel it is worthwhile investment for aesthettics, and bragging rights, as in all honesty, you would save more weight by going on a
diet, or taking a crap before you head out!
In term sof working out approximate weight savings, if you assume the laminate quality is the same for both (ie the ratio of fibre to resin), then
consider that carbon has a density of 1.8 g/cm3, and glass is close to 2.3g/cm3 - that should give you an idea of the potential weight savings (bear
in mind that most CF bodywork is probably made thinner, as it is stiffer for a given thickness).
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blakep82
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| posted on 10/5/12 at 10:06 AM |
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a lot of corbon fibre parts seem to be 1 layer of carbon, backed with fibreglass. looks good, but is basically still fibreglass, like my dashboard,
looks the part, but quite heavy.
its really a cosmetic thing as said above.
better ways to save weight, you'll save more by not having a lunch before going out, or go to the toilet...
but i like carbon (proper stuff, not the nasty vinyl stuff) so if you like it and the price is good, then go for it 
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steve m
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| posted on 10/5/12 at 10:44 AM |
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"It does look better than fibreglass, and is stronger but in cars such as ours (most of us), its really just a cosmetic benefit IMO. "
I agree, i also belive in some applications can look quite tacky, and would not even dream about sticking a piece on my car
but certain applications might work, like a carbon dash, some of them look quite nice, otheres awfull
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 10/5/12 at 11:03 AM |
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really nothing but bling and much harder to repair if it does get damaged, unless you then just painted it
carbon is quiet ugly imo nothing worse than a boy racer shopping trolley with a dirty black carbon bonnet, just looks like an unpainted replacement
panel, might as well paint white stripes over the car too
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Simon
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| posted on 10/5/12 at 11:05 AM |
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Is it worth the cost/weight counterpoint. I like carbon but if I can dumpoo more than the weight saving then it ain't worth diddly; whereas, if
the weight saving was worth say, the equiv of a passenger then I say go for it.
I doubt it'll make any difference to the driving experience, but when you get a stone chip or it falls off the car and shatters, then the upset
might be disproportionate to the loss over painted plastic.
ATB
Simon
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roadrunner
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| posted on 10/5/12 at 12:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
really nothing but bling and much harder to repair if it does get damaged, unless you then just painted it
carbon is quiet ugly imo nothing worse than a boy racer shopping trolley with a dirty black carbon bonnet, just looks like an unpainted replacement
panel, might as well paint white stripes over the car too
Or paint black spots on you Landy. 
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Steve Hignett
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| posted on 10/5/12 at 12:13 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by roadrunner
Or paint black spots on you Landy.
No-one would be that pathetic...... Shirly not???
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scootz
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| posted on 10/5/12 at 12:26 PM |
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There will be a weight saving if you buy the right stuff... but it will cost you! Is the cost commensurate with the weight saving? Yes if
you're a serious competitor. No if you're just doing it 'because'.
I would imagine that most folk (myself occasionally included) just buy CF for the 'bling'. A well done piece looks ace, but beware that
it will fade and discolour over time... and then need painting.... and re-painted fairly regularly if you want it to look perfect as the weave pattern
tends to show through.
Listen to Steve... he knows his CF onions!
It's Evolution Baby!
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RK
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| posted on 10/5/12 at 01:00 PM |
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Yes, it is a lot lighter, as you will no longer have any money in your wallet, reducing sprung weight considerably.
I believe the general consensus around here is you save locost car weight by eating less. This is easily accomplished once you have bought lots of
carbon fibre, and have no money left, with which to buy food. So two birds with one stone, as it were.
That said, I have carbon fibre parts on my car.
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 10/5/12 at 01:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hignett
quote:
Originally posted by roadrunner
Or paint black spots on you Landy.
No-one would be that pathetic...... Shirly not???
moooooo well you can't take life too seriously in a Landy, you'd go mad otherwise
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DANMAN
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| posted on 10/5/12 at 01:16 PM |
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Thanks for the feedback guys.
I'm not overly concerned about "the look", weight saving is what I am interested in. Calipers and hubs are about the only other
things I can think of to save weight. I have stripped out 3.5kgs of excess wiring, machined down the steering wheel hub and trimmed out some excess
fiberglass at another 800g, made new seat brackets that saved 2.2kgs etc. The shocks are already alloy protechs and the wheels are only 4.5kgs a piece
so I am pushing it to find other areas to lose weight. The car weighed 470kgs when I got it but I would like to get it under 450kgs so every little
bit counts. I am in the process of building a paddle shift kit which is mainly alloy of course which will mean I will remove the standard shifter
which is steel so that may save a kg or two but I am running out of ideas short of major stuff like changing the entire diff to a lightweight
option.
P.S. I weigh 79kgs so I'm not sure how much lighter I can get, maybe down to 73kgs or so.
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Steve Hignett
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| posted on 10/5/12 at 01:34 PM |
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How long are your bolts? Have you drilled out the centre of all of them? What tyres do you have? Is there excess material in the chassis? Is it
lightweight or normal weight FG?
I'm at work and don't really have time to get into lightweight stuff, but a quick look round your car and I bet you'd find half a
dozen areas to sae weight...
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scootz
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| posted on 10/5/12 at 01:37 PM |
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Battery?
It's Evolution Baby!
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Simon
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| posted on 10/5/12 at 02:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DANMAN
Thanks for the feedback guys.
I'm not overly concerned about "the look", weight saving is what I am interested in. Calipers and hubs are about the only other
things I can think of to save weight. I have stripped out 3.5kgs of excess wiring, machined down the steering wheel hub and trimmed out some excess
fiberglass at another 800g, made new seat brackets that saved 2.2kgs etc. The shocks are already alloy protechs and the wheels are only 4.5kgs a piece
so I am pushing it to find other areas to lose weight. The car weighed 470kgs when I got it but I would like to get it under 450kgs so every little
bit counts. I am in the process of building a paddle shift kit which is mainly alloy of course which will mean I will remove the standard shifter
which is steel so that may save a kg or two but I am running out of ideas short of major stuff like changing the entire diff to a lightweight
option.
P.S. I weigh 79kgs so I'm not sure how much lighter I can get, maybe down to 73kgs or so.
Hmm, you saved 800g trimming some f/glass. Oh dear see my comment about having a dump
Steel wheels is always a good one to go for. It's been debated many times. Chuck out the passenger seat. You only need a speedo (no other flash
gauges, apart from, warning lights). Bin the roll bar, saves drag too. Do without screen/lights. No bashhat, just a pair of trendy shades. Clothes
weigh 4 or 5 lbs, maybe get some Speedo's instead
Fortunately I'm fat so could save 31kgs if I got to my target weight
ATB
Simon
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 10/5/12 at 02:24 PM |
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you could replace the heavy engine with a sail, replace the heavy steering system with some rope, replace the heavy brakes with a bit of wood jammed
against the tyre, the options are limitless but then you end up with a lightweight pile of crap
keep the car sturdy and safe, not flimsy and dangerous
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RK
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| posted on 10/5/12 at 05:26 PM |
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My vote is for driving with only a speedo. No, we don't need pictures.
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DANMAN
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| posted on 10/5/12 at 09:45 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hignett
How long are your bolts? Have you drilled out the centre of all of them? What tyres do you have? Is there excess material in the chassis? Is it
lightweight or normal weight FG?
I'm at work and don't really have time to get into lightweight stuff, but a quick look round your car and I bet you'd find half a
dozen areas to sae weight...
Tyres are 185 R13 Advans. I weighed the nose cone last night and it is 4.1kgs, not overly heavy I guess but having said that I'm not sure what
the carbon version would weigh. I have shortened down a lot of bolts and replaced some with pop rivets on panels that don't need to be removed
again.
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
Battery?
The battery weighs 4kgs.
quote:
Originally posted by Simon[/i
Hmm, you saved 800g trimming some f/glass. Oh dear see my comment about having a dump
Steel wheels is always a good one to go for. It's been debated many times. Chuck out the passenger seat. You only need a speedo (no other flash
gauges, apart from, warning lights). Bin the roll bar, saves drag too. Do without screen/lights. No bashhat, just a pair of trendy shades. Clothes
weigh 4 or 5 lbs, maybe get some Speedo's instead
Fortunately I'm fat so could save 31kgs if I got to my target weight
ATB
Simon
800g doesn't sound like much but when you find three or four things at 800g all of a sudden your up around the 3kg mark.
I assumed steel wheels would have been heavy, what sort should I be looking for and what do they weigh? I'll be keeping a roll bar (even though
it weighs 14kgs) but I may consider having one made from chromoly instead.
The current dash with all the switches, isolation switch, current gauges etc is 3.1 kgs so I can make an interchangable track version at probably half
that. Passenger seat can go for track days so that saves another 5.6kgs.
It doesnt have a screen and I'll need a bash hat for track stuff so that's got to stay.
I have seen these cars around the 420kg mark, I'm curious as to how they get that low?
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James
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| posted on 11/5/12 at 12:35 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by RK
Yes, it is a lot lighter, as you will no longer have any money in your wallet, reducing sprung weight considerably.
Lol!
quote:
Originally posted by DANMAN
I have seen these cars around the 420kg mark, I'm curious as to how they get that low?
IIRC the Cymtrics chassis mods reduced weight by 10% whilst increasing torsional stiffness lots.
(although if you've had to do the 'Aussie mods' maybe yours already follows these plans!).
I believe the MNR 'lightweight' car used some more exotic materials in some areas- footwell panels etc.
Things like using the smallest diameter bolts you can safely use will save weight (I think it's 10mm for suspension (not 100% sure!) rather than
the 12mm or 12.5mm that a lot use.
Use LED rear lights instead of big ones with lenses.
Is yours a bike engine? That's the easiest way!
Or you could just turbo it!
Cheers,
James
[Edited on 11/5/12 by James]
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"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
- Muhammad Ali
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metro6r4
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| posted on 12/5/12 at 09:56 PM |
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has anyone used these got to be lighter than the stainless for similar money and they look beer new but will they last
Stone Guard Real Carbon Robinhood Westfield Caterham Kitcar *Pair* | eBay
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Simon
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| posted on 13/5/12 at 12:14 AM |
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If you're saving weight, don't use any.
Forgot, another popular weighsaver is helium in your tyres. Quick though as it's getting scarce
ATB
Simon
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