MK7
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| posted on 2/9/04 at 05:21 PM |
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2x dead alternator, but why????
My second diahatsu alternator has just died with the same problem. It seems that the rotor winding has burned out which the very helpful auto
electrical company (NAES in Manchester) tell me is most unusual.
Anyone know enough about alternators to know why this might happen? The alternator is fitted to a 1.8 pinto. It only ever sees any stress when
it's starting the engine, i.e. I never, or very seldom have the lights on (ok, the odd indicator and very occassionally a brake light  )
certainly not enought to stress the alternator I would have thought.
This last failure was accompanied by some significant rattling from within the alternator so I'm not sure if it burned out to such a degree that
bits came off it, I doubt that somehow cos the charging light would actually go out above 2,000 rpm.
My wiring harness is from MK and while it was only supplied with 2 wires (Battery and lamp) I can't see that this could cause much of a problem.
In fact the first alternator was returned faulty before I'd gotten round to fitting the Ignition feed.
Any ideas?
Thanks
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mangogrooveworkshop
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| posted on 2/9/04 at 05:52 PM |
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over revoloution from too small a pulley? Perhaps
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MK7
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| posted on 2/9/04 at 06:22 PM |
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I took the car to NAES to look at the installation and they said it looked OK.
I'm sure there are other's out there with the same alternator on a Pinto?
Anyone else had the same problem?
It would help me to hear from anyone that running the same set up as me so I can feed this back to NAES...
Cheers
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hortimech
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| posted on 2/9/04 at 06:23 PM |
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is this alternator one of the small japanese ones? 6mm bolt on output and two other connectors together in "T" formation.
Why does everything happen to me
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MK7
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| posted on 2/9/04 at 06:33 PM |
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yes
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hortimech
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| posted on 2/9/04 at 06:53 PM |
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as I have found out, these are wired different from lucas type alternators. the two connectors are for the lamp earth and the energiser wire, so it is
possible you wired it up wrong. I cannot remember which one is which, will check tomorow and let you know. I have never known one of these alternators
to burn out before, usually its the diode plate that fails, if anything
Why does everything happen to me
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MK7
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| posted on 2/9/04 at 07:18 PM |
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The two terminals are clearly marked as L an IG so I'm pretty sure that's not the problem. The engineers at NAES had a tester and
confirmed that the lamp wire was actually connected to the lamp so they were happy with that, still, any light that you can shed on it will be
appreciated.
Cheers
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hortimech
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| posted on 3/9/04 at 11:48 AM |
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the two terminals are L and IG, they are arranged in a "T", the upright of the t is the L terminal and should be connected to the negative
side of the charge warning lamp. the other terminal is the energising terminal and should be connected to a switched 12v source.
the other larger connector is the output and should be connected either to the battery positive terminal or to the starter motor main input.
[Edited on 3/9/04 by hortimech]
Why does everything happen to me
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silex
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| posted on 4/9/04 at 06:34 AM |
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Does your battery charge normally (when the alternator was working) ?
Has the battery ever appeared to draine quickly - say overnight ?
Murphy's 2 laws
1. If it can go wrong it will
2. In case of emergency - refer to rule 1.
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MK7
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| posted on 6/9/04 at 04:03 PM |
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When the alternator was fitted and for around 1,000 miles everything worked well.
I'm beginning to think that mangogrooveworkshop may be on the right track with the small pulley.
When they fix it this time I've asked them to fit a larger diameter pully. Unfortunately no-one seems to know what the specification is for this
alternator so it'll be a bit hit and miss.
What about those of you who've also fitted one of these onto a Pinto? Am I the only one having this problem?
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bob
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| posted on 6/9/04 at 06:07 PM |
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I've got the Bedford rascal/suzuki SJ10 alternator which is basicaly the same.Not had any probs so far but i've got less miles so
i'm watching progress.
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hortimech
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| posted on 6/9/04 at 06:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MK7
When they fix it this time I've asked them to fit a larger diameter pully. Unfortunately no-one seems to know what the specification is for this
alternator so it'll be a bit hit and miss.
where would you like the copy of the repair instructions/ parts list/specifications for your alternator mailing to?
Why does everything happen to me
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MK7
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| posted on 7/9/04 at 09:19 PM |
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Hortimech, you have u2u with my email and postal address.
Thanks
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Hasse
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| posted on 8/9/04 at 06:16 AM |
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Hello,
A car size alternator would in most cases be ok for up to at least 18.000 rpm, and a small Japanese one maybe a bit more.
Is your pulley lining up properly to secure a smothe run without vibrations? Vibrations might affect the connection between brush and rotor, but i
dont know if it could cause some overhetaing in the rotor coil.
It is hard to see why the rotorcoil would burn twice, since it is really not carrying a lot of current, beeing switched on/off all the time by the
voltage regulator.
Could you have had a problem with your voltage regulator causing the rotor to be switched on constantly?
Charging lamp going out at 2000 rpm seems a bit high, mine go out at idling, below 1000rpm. Could point to a possible voltage regulator error.
/Hasse
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MK7
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| posted on 9/9/04 at 03:26 PM |
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Hortimech,
thanks for sending the spec, very nice service than you 
Hasse,
I'll have to do a bit of maths to find out how fast the alternator is actually turning.
From what I can tell, the installation is OK, i.e. the pulleys line up and there's no particular vibration.
The charge light going off only happened after the thing chose to die for the second time.
Russell
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hortimech
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| posted on 9/9/04 at 06:41 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MK7
The charge light going off only happened after the thing chose to die for the second time.
Russell
do you mean the charge light was illuminated all the time the engine was running?
Why does everything happen to me
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MK7
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| posted on 10/9/04 at 07:00 AM |
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The alternator worked perfectly for a while (1,000 miles) then a rattling sound appeared then a few miles later the warning light came on.
The warning light stays on below around 2,000 to 2,500 rpm then extinguishes so the alternator must be giving some charge. The charge must be very low
though, I say this because when the alternator was working correctly the load on the engine could be heard when switching lights / rad fan on. Now
neither of these activities causes a change in engine load.
Russell
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CairB
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| posted on 10/9/04 at 12:05 PM |
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MK7,
Just a thought.
Have you inspected inside the alternator for mechanical damage, possibly caused by something getting into it?
Cheers,
Colin
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hortimech
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| posted on 10/9/04 at 06:42 PM |
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I have reread this thread and the only thing that I can think of is that you have wired it up wrong. In the motor trade lucas alternators are common,
in my trade (very big expensive lawnmowers) we only see these alternators and they virtually never go wrong. As for the speed its revolving at, I am
informed they are used on F1 cars and I think they probably rev harder than your engine
Why does everything happen to me
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DEAN C.
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| posted on 11/9/04 at 09:11 PM |
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This sounds a lot like my Toyota (Denso) alternator and they wire up totally different to a Lucas type.
It needs a ignition feed to it,and the warning light wire feeds live to one side of your lamp with a diode in have a live to the other side of the
warning light as well.
The light goes out when one side becomes an earth,I think(its a bit since I wired it up )but I also think its the method of wiring thats at fault,its
suprising how many electricians and mechanics will not know how to wire it up if its an ununusual system, as they only fix them when they are
knackerd.I'm a service engineer and fit alternators and repair wiring faults all the time,as well as checking charging systems etc..but until I
wired mine I thought they all wired up the traditional way...
DEAN..
Once I've finished a project why do I start another?
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Chippy
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| posted on 11/9/04 at 11:42 PM |
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Alternator
You know gentlemen, this all sounds like a very good reason to change to a Lucas 16 ACR, I have had them on almost all the cars I have owned, and
never had one go down. Just a thought, hope you get it sorted. ATB Chippy.
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hortimech
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| posted on 12/9/04 at 01:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DEAN C.
This sounds a lot like my Toyota (Denso) alternator and they wire up totally different to a Lucas type.
It needs a ignition feed to it,and the warning light wire feeds live to one side of your lamp with a diode in have a live to the other side of the
warning light as well.
The light goes out when one side becomes an earth,I think
DEAN..
Nope, no diodes required, and when alternator starts to charge it turns the charge lamp earth off.
IMHO this how alternators should be wired, with a lucas alternator if the bulb blows you get NO charge and NO light to tell you it is not charging
Why does everything happen to me
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DEAN C.
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| posted on 12/9/04 at 10:55 PM |
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Ill agree with you there,Just had major grief at work when I turned up to repair a JCB Teletruk,which had ate three batteries in two weeks,because
another engineer from another contractor had been called out to it he just kept fitting batteries and alternators,I checked it out and realised the
dash panel was rusty and the bulb wasn't working all the time, hence no charge light and no charged up battery
Once I've finished a project why do I start another?
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MK7
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| posted on 13/9/04 at 09:42 PM |
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I'm sure the wiring is OK because for the last 1,000 miles it's worked well, and the autoelectrical people tested it and said it was
right....
As for the chance of something getting inside and causing damage, I'll have a chat with the supplier and try to find out what kind of damage
occurred. I recall they said that a plastic separator between the rotor and stator has melted...
I'm wondering if the problem could be caused by heat from the exhaust. With a pinto the exhaust is pretty close to the alternator (2-3 inches in
front of and below number 1 pipe), I suspect that most of the other cars have their exhaust on the passengers side???
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Hugh Jarce
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| posted on 23/9/04 at 05:53 AM |
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Sounds like all the smoke has leaked out. All electrical components and wiring harnesses depend on proper circuit functioning, which is the
transmission of charged ions by retention of the visible spectral manifestation known as "smoke".
Smoke is the substance that makes electrical circuits work. Don't be fooled by so-called scientists and engineers talking about “excited
electrons” and the like. Smoke is the key to all things electrical.
We know this to be true because every time one lets smoke out of an electrical circuit, it stops working. This can be verified repeatedly through
empirical testing. For example, if one places a large copper bar across the terminals of a battery, prodigious quantities of smoke are liberated and
the battery shortly ceases to function. In addition, if one observes smoke escaping from an electrical component such as a Lucas voltage regulator, it
will also be observed that the component no longer functions.
The logic is elementary and inescapable. The function of the wiring harness is to conduct the smoke from one electrical device to another. When the
wiring harness springs a leak and allows all the smoke to exit the system, immediately, nothing works.
Starter motors were considered unsuitable for British motorcycles for some time largely because they regularly released sizeable quantities of smoke
from the electrical system.
It has been reported that Lucas brand components are possibly more prone to electrical leakage than their Bosch, Japanese or American counterparts.
Sometimes you may miss the component releasing the smoke that makes your electrical system function correctly, but if you sniff around you can often
find the faulty component by the undeniable and telltale smell of the smoke. Sometimes this is a better indicator than standard electrical tests
performed with a voltmeter.
In conclusion, the basic concept of transmission of electrical energy in the form of smoke provides a clear and logical explanation of the mysteries
of electrical components and why they fail. 
The pay isn't very good , but the work's hard.
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