theprisioner
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 08:15 AM |
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Hayabusa emissions and MSA
My latest Kit Car has a Hayabusa engine and a Power Commander. I did not build it so I am blissfully unaware of what I have bought. I also have an
issue that requires knowledge of the Hayabusa product intro dates and emissions.
The car a (Megabusa) Westfield has a 1.3L YR 2000? engine on Q plate. It has been dry sump'd and a Power Commander fitted. The car was
IVA'd in 2009 and met the current legislation at that time for emissions (Lambda < 1.01). The car performs well and has amazing performance.
It has a current MoT but the emissions have been tested assuming a no CAT configuration I believe.
The car currently does not have a CAT and my assumptions are that the configuration of the Engine was different at the IVA than it is now otherwise it
would not have passed the IVA.
I have heard (read on this forum) of a strategy's of fitting a CAT for the IVA and reducing the fuel pressure at 2/3rds max revs so the CAT
runs hot enough to pass the IVA test limits.
The other possibility is that the YR2000 engine has a connection for a Lambda hiding somewhere in the ECU wiring and has been disconnected as has
the CAT.
The key issue is that MSA in their Blue book insist that a CAT is fitted to that car (YR2009) for the class I want to be allowed to compete with. If I
fit a CAT then logic dictates a Lambda sensor should also be fitted which implies that a suitable ECU is also fitted.
Questions:
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How do I tell if a CAT/Lamda was ever fitted to that engine/ECU?
Do you have any words of wisdom on how to fit a CAT to that engine/ECU?
http://sylvabuild.blogspot.com/
http://austin7special.blogspot.co.uk/
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ashg
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 08:38 AM |
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emissions at iva are calculated by the age of the engine, not the age of the vehicle. download the iva manual and use the flow chart to work out what
the emissions should be. being realistic a yr 2000 engine will be very tricky to get to 2009 emissions targets (manufacturers can and do make lots of
improvements over 9 years)
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
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deanspoors
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 08:40 AM |
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Hi, I have a westfield Megabusa, 2005 engine. The westfield exhaust supplied has an integral cat. the car does not have a Lambda sensor though. I
don't think any busa engines do looking at the wiring diagram I have.
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theprisioner
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 08:52 AM |
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The emissions limits (are now) for the IVA is published on the front page of the Log book and is quoted as “%Co 0.5: 0.3 FI HCO 0.02 FI LAMBDA 0.97 –
1.03” that means it passed those limits when the IVA test was applied in 2009.
They do NOT take into account the age of the engine for that test. I wish they did it would make things currently much easier when arguing with the
MSA scrutiniser. I had exactly that problem earlier in the year with my Sylva and a 1997 engine. Thankfully a 1997 Sigma can be made to pass if it is
all working to spec.
If the car subsequently receives a Q plate the MoT station then gives a much higher limit for the test, that related to the engine manufacture date.
With bike engines they apply a blanket figure that you would pass without a CAT.
http://sylvabuild.blogspot.com/
http://austin7special.blogspot.co.uk/
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theprisioner
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 09:01 AM |
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My understanding of the way a CAT works, it must be kept at a constant high temperature. This is maintained by the ECU which varies the mixture till
a certain voltage is obtained from the Oxygen sensor. If you look at a Oxygen sensor output ( in closed loop control) it is a very low frequency sine
wave of a certain amplitude specified by the manufacturers of ECU and sensor.
My understanding is that a CAT, that is not regularly maintained at that high temperature will stop working and become polluted.
I am happy to debate this?
http://sylvabuild.blogspot.com/
http://austin7special.blogspot.co.uk/
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loggyboy
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 09:12 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by theprisioner
They do NOT take into account the age of the engine for that test. I wish they did it would make things currently much easier when arguing with the
MSA scrutiniser. I had exactly that problem earlier in the year with my Sylva and a 1997 engine. Thankfully a 1997 Sigma can be made to pass if it is
all working to spec..
Pretty sure they do - the wording is 'effective date' -
The “effective date” used to determine the criteria applicable is -
the date of manufacture of the vehicle, except for an “Amateur Built” vehicle, a “Vehicle manufactured using parts of a registered vehicle” or a
“Rebuilt vehicle” it shall be 1 January immediately preceding the date of manufacture of the vehicle’s engine if this is earlier.
If the “effective date” cannot be determined, it must be assumed to be on or after 1 August 1997.
[Edited on 25-9-13 by loggyboy]
Mistral Motorsport
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ali f27
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 10:57 AM |
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Hi msa rules are nothing to do mot iva etc just buy cat and cut and shut it into the system without lambda no probs
Cheers Ali
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RichardK
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 11:11 AM |
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What Ali says, this my effort
Cat when needed, straight for normal, however couldn't tell any difference in performance to cat has stayed on, cat was from the Robin Hood
store and the exhaust flanges from eBay.
Cheers
Rich
Gallery updated 11/01/2011
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russbost
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 11:12 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ali f27
Hi msa rules are nothing to do mot iva etc just buy cat and cut and shut it into the system without lambda no probs
Cheers Ali
Correct - what he said^^^
I think you'll find that for racing any bike engine will completely destroy the CAT at the first outing - hence I think you'll find that
the CAT cans are devoid of contents if you follow me, that's certainly what I've been told in the past.
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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minitici
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 11:14 AM |
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As I mentioned on Sunday - for MSA the cat does not need to function - they do not test them - only check that they are fitted to post 1999 road &
modified vehicles (not required for sports Libre or racing cars).
Previously I have installed a section of a ZX12 cat into the silencer or the tail pipe.
Douglas.
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theprisioner
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 11:40 AM |
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I am guessing here, presumably if you won your class then a disgruntled competitor could make you prove it had a CAT and that it was not an empty
shell?
http://sylvabuild.blogspot.com/
http://austin7special.blogspot.co.uk/
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russbost
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 11:49 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by theprisioner
I am guessing here, presumably if you won your class then a disgruntled competitor could make you prove it had a CAT and that it was not an empty
shell?
I would guess you may be correct, but I have a strong suspicion there must be a LOT of empty shells, I fried a CAT just by doing about 5 IVA tests
with it & my understanding is that under race conditions any "normal" road CAT overheats & melts (bike engines do chuck a lot of
VERY hot gases out when pushed hard!) - it might be possible to use something as suggested which was originally from a bike exhaust, or one of the
high flow CATs, but I don't know if even they would survive under race conditions. I suspect anyone who's racing, unless I'm
completely wrong on this, isn't going to want to comment in public as they would be admitting to having an empty can if that's actually
the case!
If there were some bits of CAT left in the can it would certainly suggest you never intentionally ran without one ...........
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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theprisioner
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 12:18 PM |
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Thanks Russbost that is a most informed answer and aligns with the facts. This is why this is the best car forum in the known universe!
I have another question:
I asked some of these questions in a bike shop this morning and the chap suggested that a Power Commander five may have the ability to read the
feedback from an Oxygen sensor and set the mixture on a feedback loop. Now that would be interesting! can anybody confirm?
http://sylvabuild.blogspot.com/
http://austin7special.blogspot.co.uk/
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russbost
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 12:41 PM |
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I think (can't remeber for sure) he is correct that PC5 can use a lambda sensor, however I would have thought in a racing environment it could
cost you a considerable amount of power & maybe even a melted piston or similar! For racing the engine should have been dyno'ed for max
power/max flexibility, with a map that the engine is going to tolerate without frying itself, if you put a lambda sensor in the mix, one, I would
expect it to kill the lambda sensor fairly rapidly!, but 2 whilst it survives it would alter mixture to get emissions/lambda at suitable levels for
the CAT to operate, which is certainly not going to be the same as max power/max engine survival
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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motorcycle_mayhem
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 02:16 PM |
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Hayabusa engines in the early days to 2001 did not have a closed loop lambda. The absence of yours is consistent with the expected engine age.
From 2002 (K2) there is one Lambda sensor.
I built my Megabusa in 2002. When I SVA'd the car, the default standard non-cat emmission limits were applied (even though I had a 2002
catalyst-equipped K2). No limits were put on the V5, the sun was shining and all was well. STATUS hadn't made up its mind about bike engined
cars, so a few went through the system in this way.
3 Years later and the 1st MoT required that the emmissions had to be those of a post 93 catalyst equipped car (hey ho)Two welded in catalysts later,
backing off the fuel pressure and sitting there with a laptop eventually got it a MoT. This farce continued until a few years later when I sold the
car.
Your competitors will complain about something if you win, or look like you're going to, this is my experience. Having taken three Sprint
Championships in successive years, you find there are some undead people out there in the paddock, they're not just sitting at home watching
X-factor.
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theprisioner
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 03:20 PM |
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Spoke to the Power Commander man (Richard) at DynoJet. Basically that product is no good at improving emissions as that is not the intended use. He
also said that I would never melt a sports CAT with a bike engine.
This is a great thread!
http://sylvabuild.blogspot.com/
http://austin7special.blogspot.co.uk/
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ali f27
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 03:38 PM |
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I am my sure my cat is full inside once saw a guy argue that the blue book did not say where you had to fit the cat so he had taped it to the roll
bar
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deeceee09
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| posted on 25/9/13 at 04:04 PM |
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What's happened to the J15?
My Duratec has a CAT fitted but with three maps on an Emerald ECU only one uses the lambda sensor for IVA and MOTs. Scrutineers don't worry
about this aspect as long as a CAT is fitted for Roadgoing classes.
Speak to Andy Bates http://www.abperformance.co.uk/default.htm and ask him about melting CATs on bike engined cars. The last time I saw an RGB race
they all had their CATs at the very end of the exhaust system with the cells open at the end to try to keep them cool enough.
If you are you considering racing ask on this forum http://www.rgb-racing.org.uk/rgbbb/ or if hilclimb/sprinting try this one
http://www.uphillracers.com/forum.php
Good luck and let us know how you get on.
Treachery and old age will always triumph over youthful enthusiasm.
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Chet
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| posted on 28/9/13 at 06:11 PM |
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FYI
Please note that the early Hayabusa engines use a starting system that WILL destroy the starter (and possibly the cases also) if you spin the car
without stabbing the clutch in fast enough. This same problem also happened occasionally when trying to start the engine with a low battery.
Suzuki changed the starting system design in 2003 here in the USA because of the numerous warranty claims.
This newer system can be easily retrofitted to the early engines. I strongly suggest you check to make sure this has been done.
In addition, although I am not a fan of any dry sumps for the Hayabusa ( we use a specially modified Koenig billet oil pan and swivel pickup ), it is
my understanding that the original Westfield supplied dry sump was especially troublesome.
Chet
Galek Motorsports Racing
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