flak monkey
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 01:32 PM |
|
|
I fancy a new challenge - Supercharging
Having just bought a supercharged mini, I am thinking of something to do on those cold winter nights.... 
Not sure if anyone else has done it, but I think its worth a go.
Cossie engine, supercharger, fuel injection (mega squirt), see where I am going with this?
I love the pinto power and torque, but I want something to do as a challenge more than anything, just to say I have done it!
I think cossie as it already has the lowered compression ratio needed for forced induction. Unless anyone else has any bright ideas?
Other thing, the engine needs to be cheap to start with. Anyone got a 16v turbo cossie lump (minus the turbo!)sitting around that I could purchase?
Either that or I could supercharge the existing pinto... Would save me having to buy a new exhaust etc too.
Cheers,
David
[Edited on 16/9/08 by flak monkey]
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
|
|
|
|
|
Duncan_P
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 01:41 PM |
|
|
Not sure that a cossie engine will be that cheap, and getting hold of an un-abused one will also be tricky.
As an alternative how about going using a Saab turbo engine as a base? Some of them (can't remember what years off hand) come with a Vauxhall
gearbox bolt pattern....so an off the shelf adaptor might fit your Type 9(?). A bit of a faff i know but would probably end up cheaper than a cossie
lump. Also the 'stock' internals are allegedly stronger.
ETA: Actually thinking about it once you have added a custom exhaust im not sure how much cheaper the saab option would be 
[Edited on 16/9/08 by Duncan_P]
|
|
|
tegwin
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 01:48 PM |
|
|
Why not get a zetec...1.8 or 2.0.... They can be had for so little money if you know where to look....Now one of those with a SC and megasquirt would
shift!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would the last person who leaves the country please switch off the lights and close the door!
www.verticalhorizonsmedia.tv
|
|
|
flak monkey
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 01:49 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by tegwin
Why not get a zetec...1.8 or 2.0.... They can be had for so little money if you know where to look....Now one of those with a SC and megasquirt would
shift!
Lowering the CR is a bit of a bugger...but doable with some shims.
Its an option, certainly. Would go duratec if it had to be a modern ford engine though I think...
In all honesty, keeping the pinto is a good option as I wouldnt need to buy a new exhaust etc. Not sure if the cossie bolt pattern etc is the same, i
presume it isnt.
David
[Edited on 16/9/08 by flak monkey]
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
|
|
|
tegwin
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 01:55 PM |
|
|
Failing that...
How about a VAG 1.8T unit?...
Perhaps slightly heavier than the zetec...But rock solid)
There are some nutters who have got around 350Hp out of fairly standard tune.....
Whack a SC on that and its almost ready to go... And im sure someone on here was selling VAG to MT75/T9 converters...
I always fancied getting one of the newer 1.6 duratec engines from the Sport KA, sticking a SC on that and sticking it in a middy.....not sure
why
[Edited on 16/9/08 by tegwin]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would the last person who leaves the country please switch off the lights and close the door!
www.verticalhorizonsmedia.tv
|
|
|
mr henderson
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 02:01 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by tegwin
Failing that...
How about a VAG 1.8T unit?...
Perhaps slightly heavier than the zetec...But rock solid)
There are some nutters who have got around 350Hp out of fairly standard tune.....
With a bigger turbo and some changes to the ECU, not do-able with a supercharger though, I shouldn't think.
The power losses caused by a crank drived supercharger are considerable, so going from turbo to super seems like a step in the wrong direction.
John
|
|
|
Mr Whippy
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 02:08 PM |
|
|
what about a small jet engine? that looks fun
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
|
|
|
tegwin
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 02:09 PM |
|
|
Edited to say... Are you suggesting that he builds a jet engine, or uses one to provide scary amounts of boost for his piston engine? 
Haha..yes...as soon as I can afford that tig welder I will be making myself a Gas turbine engine out of the largest truck turbocharger I can lay my
hands on
[Edited on 16/9/08 by tegwin]
[Edited on 16/9/08 by tegwin]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would the last person who leaves the country please switch off the lights and close the door!
www.verticalhorizonsmedia.tv
|
|
|
flak monkey
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 02:19 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
The power losses caused by a crank drived supercharger are considerable, so going from turbo to super seems like a step in the wrong direction.
John
I disagree, almost entirely with that statement, but then I would, wouldnt I?
Superchargers have far more advantages than a turbo, but their integration is more expensive and complex, therefore most production cars with forced
induction use a turbo, not a SC.
There's a reason the most powerful vehicles use superchargers, not turbos. Yes they draw a lot from the crank, but they give you huge gains too,
right through the rev range with very little lag.
Besides turbos pretty common in sevens these days, don't recall ever seeing one with a SC strapped on?
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
|
|
|
BenB
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 02:39 PM |
|
|
Go supercharger!!!
Only question is which engine.....
You want something strong, low CR, easily accesible crank pulley and sensible cams..
How about Volve engines??? They are certainly over-spec'd (look at how much abuse you can chuck at a Volvo rear axle before it'll
complain)...
|
|
|
BenB
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 02:43 PM |
|
|
Only problem might be CR-
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1994-VOLVO-850-2-5-DOHC-ENGINE-GEARBOX-B5252S_W0QQitemZ270268353742QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item270268353742&_trkparms=72%3A984|3
9%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A12|240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
has is RWD to begin...
but has a CR of 10.3:1 which will limit your boost potential unless you fit a decompression plate (or unless it's got a split block in which
case you can use a spacer gasket).
|
|
|
flak monkey
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 02:46 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by BenB
Go supercharger!!!
Only question is which engine.....
You want something strong, low CR, easily accesible crank pulley and sensible cams..
All of those things are part of the reason my first thought was cossie engine. Not looking at silly boost, probably 1bar (14psi).
Volvo engines are solid, but I know bugger all about them, and I have a feeling an exhaust is going to be major money..... 
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
|
|
|
owelly
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 02:55 PM |
|
|
You need to speak to the guys at PPC magazine as they have just done a series of articles on super charging. It gave a list of chargers, pully sizes
and everything!
If you need a set of photocopies/scans, let me know!
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
|
|
|
graememk
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 03:01 PM |
|
|
why dont you stick a bike engine in it ?
or
turbo the pinto, just for a laugh.
[Edited on 16/9/08 by graememk]
|
|
|
mr henderson
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 03:06 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
There's a reason the most powerful vehicles use superchargers, not turbos.
Are you referring to american dragsters? The Veyron uses turbos
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
Yes they draw a lot from the crank, but they give you huge gains too, right through the rev range with very little lag.
So it's alright strapping what is in effect a large brake to an engine? I though the idea was to get more power, not waste it.
Turbos get most of their driving power from the heat energy in the exhaust, which otherwise would be wasted
John
|
|
|
x_flow57
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 03:11 PM |
|
|
Friend of mine has had a Cossie head put on his Pinto, with twin 50 Webbers it is putting out in the reigion of 300HP in his Mk1 Escort rally car. I
think he has used his original Pinto ex manifold. Brian Randle in Suffolk did the machining worth a call if you want to go down that route.
Nick
|
|
|
flak monkey
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 03:30 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by x_flow57
Friend of mine has had a Cossie head put on his Pinto, with twin 50 Webbers it is putting out in the reigion of 300HP in his Mk1 Escort rally car. I
think he has used his original Pinto ex manifold. Brian Randle in Suffolk did the machining worth a call if you want to go down that route.
Nick
Thanks Nick, good to know of a local engineering place
John,
I am referring to dragcars (not necessarily the US ones), both the top fuelers and the pro stock.
The veyron isn't that much of a feat of engineering, just an overpriced supercar IMO.
David
[Edited on 16/9/08 by flak monkey]
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
|
|
|
alistairolsen
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 03:36 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
Turbos get most of their driving power from the heat energy in the exhaust, which otherwise would be wasted
John
I dont know whether to laugh or cry
|
|
|
big_wasa
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 04:02 PM |
|
|
I would try and charge the pinto. I bet you could go 4psi with out mods to the cr 
|
|
|
mr henderson
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 04:04 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by alistairolsen
quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
Turbos get most of their driving power from the heat energy in the exhaust, which otherwise would be wasted
John
I dont know whether to laugh or cry
?????
|
|
|
Mave
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 04:08 PM |
|
|
As long as your not aiming for silly boost, you don't have to lower the compression ratio on the Zetec. Do a search on the westfield boardroom
voor "zetec AND supercharger" and you'll find a nice example, dyno-ed at 203 bhp. The engine is stock.
|
|
|
alistairolsen
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 04:13 PM |
|
|
Do you really believe the power to drive a turbochager is 'free' while that to drive a supercharger is paid for in engine power?
|
|
|
mr henderson
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 04:23 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by alistairolsen
Do you really believe the power to drive a turbochager is 'free' while that to drive a supercharger is paid for in engine power?
If you use the 'quote' feature you will get a more exact statement of what I actually said,
"Turbos get most of their driving power from the heat energy in the exhaust, which otherwise would be wasted "
This is what Wikipedia says
"However, the energy to spin the supercharger is taken from the rotating output energy of the engine's crankshaft as opposed to normally
exhausted gas from the engine. Superchargers use output energy from an engine to achieve a net gain, which must be provided from some of the
engine's total output. Turbochargers, on the other hand, convert some of the piston engine's exhaust into useful work. This energy would
otherwise be wasted out the exhaust. This means that a turbocharger is a more efficient use of the heat energy obtained from the fuel than a
supercharger."
You can read all about it here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocharger
Hope this helps
John
|
|
|
indykid
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 04:26 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by alistairolsen
Do you really believe the power to drive a turbochager is 'free' while that to drive a supercharger is paid for in engine power?
comparatively, yes.
tom
|
|
|
clairetoo
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 04:35 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
I am referring to dragcars (not necessarily the US ones), both the top fuelers and the pro stock.
David
[Edited on 16/9/08 by flak monkey]
Top fuel cars get most of their 6000 hp from the fuel (nitro methane) , and it takes something like 1000 hp to drive the supercharger....
Pro stock cars are normally-aspirated , not supercharged
Its cuz I is blond , innit
Claire xx
Will weld for food......
|
|
|
