Rescued attachment tytan-chassis-1.jpg
so far
Rescued attachment tytan-chassis-1.jpg
and this
Rescued attachment tytan-chassis-2.jpg
You have been busy with a hacksaw and a tube bender!
Looks good though!
Pat...
Phenomenal mate...
Looks like that tube bender's being put to good use! 
Can't wait to get my VortX, build it, thrash it, sell it then buy one of them!
Would bike power be wasted in a chassis like that or is the car engined route more suitable?
Chris.
quote:
You have been busy with a hacksaw and a tube bender!
quote:
Would bike power be wasted in a chassis like that or is the car engined route more suitable?
and the
porsche v8 well
Looks very nice, but very heavy...
quote:
Looks very nice, but very heavy...
target weight for complete car is 850 kilos with 480 hp audi engine and 560
hp porsche engine
should be nice...look forward to seeing the finished article.
Marc
"target weight for complete car is 850 kilos with 480 hp audi engine and 560 hp porsche engine"
One in the front and one in the back? That'll beat a twin engined Tiger any day!! Might be a bit thirsty around town though.
Looks great. Don't put too much triangulation in there though or there won't be anywhere for the driver to sit
Pete
due to the interest thought i would post a couple more pics
chassis so far still requires front lower engine mounts, steering rack position , wishbone pickup points, floor triangulation and further bulkhead and
sidepod triangulation, and engine bay lower triangulation
the chassis at the point shown below comes in at 66 kilos
[Edited on 25/7/05 by marc n]
Rescued attachment tytan-update.jpg
and here is the small motor to power it
[Edited on 25/7/05 by marc n]
oops forgot to add picture
Rescued attachment tytan-engine.jpg
i was admiring the engine out of a cl65amg yesterday, now thats a big lump! v12 twin turbo...
thats the 4 cyl audi engine ?
i keep forgetting to ring marc - hows me brackets ?- im gonna need some more now .
That must be a V8!? What car do Audi produce with that lump in?
And how much do they cost!? Don't think it'll wedge into the VortX...
Chris
i dont think youd be able to see the road with that lump in front of you!
Bloody hell Marc, i thought you were building a car not Thrust 3
Is this the chassis for the car that you are planning on showing at Harrogate???? If so you are certainly setting yourself a challenge. I cant wait to
see it for real, its starting to look great. Well done keep it up (dont forget - when its dark you are supposed to get some shut eye!!)
quote:
(dont forget - when its dark you are supposed to get some shut eye!!)
That chassis looks like a nice piece of work!!
Is this what your dad mentioned to me on the phone when I spoke to him some time ago, I mentioned that my mate runs Ultima (Richard Marlow) and he
mentioned something about keeping my eye out for something new from you!
on the engine front, don't forget the route that Ultima use.
An old chevy, in ally block form, makes phenominal power per pound spent!
The 640hp engine in their current demo car was £11,000 brand new from the USA in a crate, and they have a 720 hp one waiting to go in at the mo.
Having been to Le Mans in the car this year I can testify that it is insanely fast..........0-60 is a total irrelevance and 0-100 is over too quickly
to even really register (only 1 gearchange, 70mph in first) and while it is an ol' chevy, it's still totally reliable, tractable (even on
the carb that it runs!) and goes to 8000 rpm!!!
The std Porsche G50 is up to the job fine as well (with a taller diff in this one for the 230mph top end)
Worth considering!
[Edited on 26/7/05 by NS Dev]
we are also working on somthing really radical and new, but the bodywork wont be finished till the end of the year, as its so complex. some sketches
should appear on our website in the next couple of months
the engine fitted in the tytan at the moment is the audi a8 v8 £1300 with all bits inc gearbox from a breakers and 430 hp as standard, so is quite a
lot of bang for your buck, and as the car is going to be so light i would think its is probably fast enough for most although the ultima engine sounds
good to me
£1300 for 430hp certainly sounds like a bargain to me (for "proper" v8 hp!!!)
That's got me thinking about the powerplant for my new grasser!!!???!!!
I'll bet you've weighed it, how much does it weigh with gearbox? Engine management wise are you using the std setup or aftermarket jobbie? I
guess a DTA box or the like would be a lot easier.
Hmmmmmmm, a very excited Nat has ensued from this thread!!
havent weighed it yet will this afternoon though
i would think the rolling chassis is heading towards 130 kg so looking good so far
at the mo its running standard ecu etc as it came out of the car, but huge gains can be had by different ecu etc up to 650 hp for about a grand
more
infact i have two grass tracking guys working for me now one who races class 2 and the other class 10 plus other mates are in class 8 and 6 and one
guy used to be in class 9
all with some damn fine bits of kit
some of the cars out there are bloody well engineered cars and dont always get the credit they deserve
[Edited on 27/7/05 by marc n]
As you've probably guessed, I race a class 9 (it's the one in my "avatar" with a Vauxhall XE in it. Pretty std class 9 fare but I
did the chassis from scratch with a few unique features which have subsequently provided "interest" for a mr Chris Allanson!
I won my class at club level last year (which was my first full year racing) but this year I'm struggling trying to get some gear ratios that
work at other tracks and being let down by a certain gear cutting company.
For next year (as long as the 7 is finished!) I'm looking to build a class 7 on a bit of a budget and was looking at Saab turbo power but the
Audi V8 looks like a tempting alternative at that sort of money!
hmm class 7 - just sold me 242 , so thats not a possibility - id get shot for doing that anyway . What cars are normally used anyway ?
Sorry for the off topic marc !
oh , theres a chap selling a DTA pro for £600 , if youre interested . Comes with all the bits , never used
Really is off topic, very sorry for the total Hijack Marc!
"Normal" () cars used in class 7 are pretty much anything small and light, currently popular are metros/rover 100, mini (old type!), fiat
seicento/cinquicento, fiat punto, vw polo. All those sorts of things.
The rules for this year have been slightly changed so that with a slightly "imaginative" interpretation (that is entirely scrutineer-proof)
you can now fully spaceframe the 'shell, which was "technically" illegal last year. (you previously had to "step" the tubes
where the main cage passed through the front bulkhead to mount the double wishbone setup at the front. The two were supposed to be seperate, linked
only by the body shell, but that rule was just daft so they have changed it now, which is why I'm now interested!)
Going well at the recent big meetings that I have been to were - a variety of twin hayabusa powered seicentos and metros, (the twin bike cars tend to
be doing a lot of th winning) and then stuff like a transverse rear engined supercharged rover v8 pug 106, and a couple of transverse rear engined
millington 2.5 powered metros. one of the quickest cars I have seen in recent times is a metro with an Impreza turbo engine in the back, but with a
vortech supercharger in place of the turbo. Also a twin turbo mazda rotary powered metro has been setting the pace well too.
I think that Audi v8, on throttle bodies and mappable ECU could give em a run though!
What comes with the DTA ECU for £600?
[Edited on 27/7/05 by NS Dev]
it comes with the laptop link , and software (i think) - it was bought to run ona V8 but can only run high impedance injectors .
The reason why the guy was selling it because his 1400 hp drag car wont idle because the cheap option is low Z injectors and resistors - but at such
a big flow rate the injector is so slow , you cant tune the thing .
youd be ok on low z injectors to about 700 hp - they just get too big after that - another reason why im using megasquirt that allows dual table ie
small and big !!
ill give you his phone number if youre interested . ITs a Pro version
[Edited on 27/7/05 by Volvorsport]
moved to U2u
[Edited on 27/7/05 by NS Dev]
Moved to u2u
ahem Nat, V8 1300 quid, does the misses know what she's going to be competiting with?
now ........ how about slapping a super charger or two on that engine .......... come on, you know you want too...........
Marc, back onto topic - i'm curious why people are using so much bent tube in chassis these days?
Can I throw my answer in and see how it compares to Marc's!
Less time consuming welding. Less stress raisers produced by welding. Lighter construction. New tube bending technology allows very accurate fits to
be achieved.
quote:
Less time consuming welding. Less stress raisers produced by welding. Lighter construction. New tube bending technology allows very accurate fits to be achieved.
and of course less fishmouths to notch in the tube, we can get such accuracy that most tubes can be bent so they meet at 90 degrees which is much easier to notch than larger angles
interesting, i didn't want to mention the old Chapman comment about a bent tube is pre-failed. But if what you say is correct, this suddenly
makes complete sense (and a rather tastey chassis).
I guess this also adds to faster (and therefore cheeper) construction for you.
Is that chapman comment taken out of context perhaps? I'm sure he didn't mean it in this type of application.
A tube is manufactured by "bending" effectively.
I seem to remember some talk on here a while back about bent tube wishbones being weaker, which in that context at the time was true, as the wishbone
layout put the tubing away from the load path and set up bending stress in it under load, rather than nice straightforward tensile and compressive
load, but that isn't the case here.
Though the tube is bent, the load paths are in straight lines.
Where the technology gets really nice (but also really expensive and really out of reach of small companies!!!!) is when you can combine a cnc tube
cutting laser with a cnc bender on one line.
A friend of mine works for a stainless and alloy fabrication company in Shropshire and they now have such a setup (as do Safety Devices and Caged I
believe, to name two more)
The beauty of this is that the laser cnc profiles the fishmouths onto the ends of the tubes, then puts the calculated bends on, thus putting all the
fishmouths in exactly the right orientations, and meaning no hand fettling when it comes to welding together.
My mates recent projects have included the design of some stainless modular buildings (for ticket offices and toilets on stations apparently) and the
laser cutting is so accurate that they can make the buildings "slot-together" by having slots on the stainless tubular posts and connecting
pieces that just slot in. They even laser etch the assembly instructions onto each tube on the cnc tube cutter!!!
Ain't technology brilliant!!
yep, most probably out of context - just remembered the comment.
At least i now understand the concerns over the bent wishbones. Makes sense when put like that.
Oh, technology is only brillient when i get to play with it
All those bent tubes remind me of the Robin Hood chassis. Are you saying it's structurally unsound because of the bends? Surely not!
I was concerned due to the out of context comment i'd heard about bent tubes from a certain Mr Chapman.
NS DEV has explained the comment and basically bent tubes are unsound in certain situations. In this chassis design they should work out at least as
strong as square tube and most probably stronger (plus looking sexier)
ahhh, now I wasn't comparing Marc's chassis to the Robin Should one!!!
If you look at that one, there are untriangulated bends in it and a general lack of triangulation..............a very different animal!
Funny that should be mentioned as I was just flicking through PPC mag and saw their advert and was just contemplating the chassis!
Bends are not a problem at all, just as welds are not either, but they have to be in the right place. Just as you would prefer not to put a butt weld
in the middle of a stressed straight tube, neither would you put a bend in the middle of one without otherwise supporting it.
Re. the Robin Should chassis, areas of concern for me are the diagonal from the front that comes up towards the steering wheel, this has a double bend
in it with no additional support. The vertical tube that this connects to is triangulated neither top nor bottom, and nor is it's partner on the
other side of the tyransmission "gap" in the middle of the chassis! The tubes that kick up at the rear to mount the rear coilovers and the
roll hoop base also look rather flexible!!!
Further to this contrast the design of marcs chassis with the number of "open" tube ends on the Robin Should design, where a number of tubes
are welded to the edges of each other, that is really poor design with round tube, there is no excuse for not fitting the tubes properly, nearly all
the strength of the joint is lost doing it this way!!
anyway, need dinner so I'm off to the pub with Elaine
see you all later!
Nat
[Edited on 27/7/05 by NS Dev]
This is one very interesting thread!
Very informative...
of course the other benifit is related to the fewer weld s the less likely the chassis is to pull when welded,
re robin hood we have had one in recently to do a large mount of work on, the main issues with the chassis are as ns dev has pointed out particularly
the welding of tubes side to side rather than butt welded, and the fact that there are so many open ended tubes and virtually no triangulation, and a
very weak pedal box area, but as stated on there website somewhere it takes them 20 mins to bend the tube and 1 hour to weld together, in contrast a 7
car takes us three days to manufacture before powdercoating, and the wishbones a day for a set !!!
at the end of the day you get what you pay for robin hood make no claims at being the best car out there but simply the cheapest form of 7 type car in
kit form,
although the last couple we have had in have had owners with no skill at welding / fabricating so have had to employ a third party to make
modifications and alterations and have thus stood ther owners at 8 k + and in one case it still isnt on the road or svad !!!!,
that aside i have also seen some of the owners cars at shows who have with the same collection of parts have done wonders and produced a very tidy car
( although not without a lot of time in some cases four years and deication )
i think the main point is that the robin hood is for the enthusiat / model engineer who can weld and fabricate which will mean you will very rarely
see two the same which some will say is the appeal of them.
i think it is a very bold project to start if you have limited experiance and equipment and are looking for an easy build
all this my own personal view
and i stand corrected if i am wrong
best regards
marc
[Edited on 28/7/05 by marc n]
hi nat
havent weighed it yet the laser cut brackets didnt arrive yesterday so the engine is still proped in position but hope to do today for you, would be
interested in getting involved in your build we are actually going to make a new class 8 chassis for a mate of mine this winter, and probably a class
7 too for one of the lads who works for me
Hi,
Cheers Marc, I'm certainly very interested in knowing the weight of that engine and gearbox!
It'll be a few months before I can get started on the grasser project, as I need the "locost" 7 out of the way first, and I need to
keep an eye on finances! (not too bad but I have to remember things like the £500 I'll be paying shortly for the new gearbox for my class 9,
apparently all the bits are ready now, just needs putting together!)
I'll certainly keep you informed of any developments,
I'll be needing some dimensional info on the Audi engine when I come to considering bodyshells too. I was determined to use a mini shell, but I
think it just isn't going to fit and still leave me anywhere to sit!!! The main consideration for the shell is the easy and cheap accessibility
of outer body panels!
Interesting that you are building some grasser chassis'. The existing manufacturers vary in the quality of job that they do, but none are cheap
now by any stretch of the imagination! (i.e. I would think there is a modest profit to be made, whereas 5 years ago I don't think there really
was)
Cheers
Nat
Nat the engine will fit - just put it in at an angle and call it counter balance, if its still a problem, mini pickup!
come on .... lets get creative (or get on a diet). Most small cars are similar sizes so it won't fit any car. Now i've got an escort shell
you can have if you're interested
You like the angled engine idea don't you Mike!!! I think with the v8, especially with nice tubular manifolds on it, it might be a bit wide for
that idea.
Pickup is an interesting plan, I certainly know of two chevy v8 powered mini pickups (one supercharged) in the st Neots club, and I'm sure
there's a supercharged rover v8 mini pickup in the Evesham/Radford club?
Certainly worth considering, as the front end panels are the same anyway I suppose!
you've noticed I just think for weight balance on a car that spends half its time going round a right hand bend its worth investigating.
headers, smeders......... you've got a fireproof suit on ....... just get some tin foil or something
Marc - should we go back to discussing your car now?
May be a bit heavy for bike engine power, but what about twin bike engines?
