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A bike engine for my application
clutch_kick - 18/1/06 at 03:23 PM

Hi guys. I've scraped the idea of using a car engine simply because i want to try something new, and i want sequential gears.

So being a total nitwit about bike engines i'm going to ask for some help. I'm planning on a Vortx RT, so what bike engine should i go for considering the following :

1) I want to use Haltech E11 ECU to operate it on fuel injection.

2) It gets very hot in Malta

3) Will be used in the occasional sprint or Hillclimb.

4) Emmissions testing is a headache here.

smart51 - 18/1/06 at 04:09 PM

I believe that MNR have found R1s and blades to be easier to get though SVA emissions than the ZX12.

Why do you want to use your own fuel injection when many bike engines come with their own?

The heat of Malta should be no problem for your engine but you will want a good cooling system. MNR will supply you with a big radiator and fan.

clutch_kick - 18/1/06 at 04:35 PM

Well i love tweaking ECU's. We recently set-up my friend's Fiat Uno turbo with the haltech, very userfriendly and flexible, doing approx 320bhp from a 1400cc.

But i will get the engine running on it's original ECU first, makes more sense when you have to learn a new engine.

RichieC - 18/1/06 at 04:55 PM

Sorry mate, 320BHP from an Uno Turbo ie?
Clearly more than just ECU work
How reliable is that going to be....

As for the question, having had a good play about with many ECUs from pectel to dastech, I would recommend against it.

If youre set on a bike engine with injection, use a power commander to allow a bit of tweaking of the map and to help get it through emmissions.
As for entry points, Im not sure how much a Power Commander gives you so Im not entirely sure this would suit you.

Speak to MNR about their recommendation for a bike engine, an R1 is more than adequate for most aplications and IMHO the ZX12/Busas arent worth the extra expense.

The choices have been done to death, have a search about and see what owners think about it, Im sure therell be some like minded souls

Rich

lsdweb - 18/1/06 at 04:57 PM

Hi clutch_kick

I'm also planning on using my Emerald management system on my bike engine (R1- original intention was a Blackbird - see my other posts!).

The one complication is that some of the bike crank pickup sensors are unique (Honda 12/3) and you may find difficulty getting an after market management system to work with these. You're then stuck with trying to fit an external crank sensor wheel (tricky) or, like I'm considering, removing the generator and fitting a sensor / wheel in the space left - no good for a road car unless you fit an external alternator.

Regards

Wyn

clutch_kick - 18/1/06 at 05:10 PM

RichieC ... yes it is more than just ECU fiddiling. It's the fruit of 2 yrs .. one dead engine, a few turbos, individual throttle bodies, bigger valves, intercooler, 8 injectors ... and a lot of fuel!! ... and yes it's reliable at a lovely 1.8bar boost

lsdweb ... we used rare earth magnets on the Crank Pulley to get a speed signal.

RichieC - 18/1/06 at 05:35 PM

Might be worth posting some questions in the BEC forum here or the Yahoo BEC list too, loads of experience and Im sure someones tried it before.

Rgds

Rich

clutch_kick - 18/1/06 at 10:43 PM

Well i'm pretty much committed to building a Vortx. I just need to get the money togather, since i'm also building a house right now. So i thought i'd ask on this Forum. The R1 engine is very tempting. Is that EFI or does it run on carbs?

I have a big respect for Yamaha engines, as i had a Celica GT-Four. Contrary to what many believe, the engine is Yamaha and not Toyota

[Edited on 18/1/06 by clutch_kick]

lsdweb - 18/1/06 at 11:06 PM

Hi clutch_kick

One of the problems with bike engines as they don't have an external crank pulley!

The engine I've just bought is a carb version but I'll be fitting throttle bodies (Suzuki), so I need a decent management system.

I've posted on the BEC forum and had some good responses, although I haven't found the answers yet.............

Dillinger1977 - 19/1/06 at 08:26 AM

quote:
Originally posted by clutch_kick
Well i'm pretty much committed to building a Vortx. I just need to get the money togather, since i'm also building a house right now. So i thought i'd ask on this Forum. The R1 engine is very tempting. Is that EFI or does it run on carbs?

I have a big respect for Yamaha engines, as i had a Celica GT-Four. Contrary to what many believe, the engine is Yamaha and not Toyota

[Edited on 18/1/06 by clutch_kick]


r1 is carbs 1998 - 2001 (4xv + 5jj models) , EFI 2002 onwards.

AFAIK the engine in my ford puma is Yamaha aswell

jimgiblett - 19/1/06 at 03:36 PM

A power commander with ignition control can piggy back the std Yamaha ECU to allow quite a bit of fettling.

Alternatively a full Kit loom and ECU as used by the sidecar guys will overcome the revlimiter as well and allow custom mapping of fuel and ignition.

- Jim

clutch_kick - 29/1/06 at 04:28 PM

So what sort of Final drive ratio should i be looking for, if i went for a BEC in the 1000 -1300cc range? (trying to get hold of a Busa)

Also found that there are differences in Sierra Diff, namely the shaft outputs. Any recomendations?

smart51 - 29/1/06 at 07:35 PM

I have a 3.62 diff on my R1. It's just fine. Top speed in 1st is about 50, in 2nd about 70 and in top about 120.

A 3.14 diff (rare and so expensive) would give me 59 in 1st and 139 in top. I'd want to fit bigger wheels to get me over 60 in 1st to be worth while. About 65 in 1st would make it a great back road blaster. instead I use 2nd which is slightly slower but still a lot of fun.

Find out the gear ratios of you chosen bike and work out which diff ratio is best.

clutch_kick - 29/1/06 at 10:52 PM

Hmmm ... ok ... well i'll plan things out on the Hayabusa gear ratios. Many thanks for the advice. 120 mph in 6th sounds pretty good to me, should be fun at the 1/4 mile

Can one change the final drive on a Sierra diff? ie .. go to a higher or lower ratio by changing the crown wheel and pinion?

smart51 - 30/1/06 at 08:06 AM

replacing the pinion is very difficult, I'm told. I looked into combining my 3.62 LSD with a 3.14 diff to make a 3.14 LSD. I was told to swap the diff part and leave the pinion well alone.

The good news is that open diffs are quite cheap and the ones with push on shafts are all compatible with each other so you can swap the whole diff out if needed.

[Edited on 30-1-2006 by smart51]

clutch_kick - 30/1/06 at 12:54 PM

so what exactly are the diff ratios available with LSD?

G.Man - 30/1/06 at 01:05 PM

quote:
Originally posted by smart51
I believe that MNR have found R1s and blades to be easier to get though SVA emissions than the ZX12.

Why do you want to use your own fuel injection when many bike engines come with their own?

The heat of Malta should be no problem for your engine but you will want a good cooling system. MNR will supply you with a big radiator and fan.


Ahem, My zx12r Vortx RT+ passed SVA first time...

RichieC - 30/1/06 at 01:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by clutch_kick
so what exactly are the diff ratios available with LSD?

3.62:1 is the only factory fit LSD for the Sierra and was found in the XR4x4 and 4x4 Cosworth.

There may well be others around which have been modified but this is the one youll come across most.

smart51 - 30/1/06 at 01:25 PM

quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
Ahem, My zx12r Vortx RT+ passed SVA first time...


.. but was it easy?

smart51 - 30/1/06 at 01:28 PM

quote:
Originally posted by clutch_kickso what exactly are the diff ratios available with LSD?


Sierra XR4x4 V6 came with a 3.62 LSD
Sierra XR4x4 2.0i came with a 3.92 LSD

3.62 are the most common I'm told. In fact 3.62 open diffs are the most common. also available in limited numbers are 3.38 and 3.14 though the 3.14s are very rare.

RichieC - 30/1/06 at 04:13 PM

The XR4x4 was a V6 (Cologne) 2.8 and latterly a 2.9. If you mean the 2.0 twincam 4x4, then yes some of them had 3.92s but they were fairly thin on the ground.
Ive come across more incorrect info about this one subject than any other, so beware.

Bear in mind these are the diffs which were fitted to UK Sierras, they did vary throughout Europe and further afield.

I recommend this by Marty (aka sierra club diff guru) who goes through the many and varied combinations.



[Edited on 30/1/06 by RichieC]

G.Man - 30/1/06 at 06:06 PM

quote:
Originally posted by smart51
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
Ahem, My zx12r Vortx RT+ passed SVA first time...


.. but was it easy?


Piece of wee as my loom was wired correctly

smart51 - 30/1/06 at 06:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
quote:
Originally posted by smart51
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
Ahem, My zx12r Vortx RT+ passed SVA first time...


.. but was it easy?


Piece of wee as my loom was wired correctly



Loom nothing. I believe that getting the emissions right was a bit of a pain on the ZX12s, unless you'd like to elaborate...

clutch_kick - 30/1/06 at 07:24 PM

elaborate ... elaborate please ....

G.Man - 30/1/06 at 08:21 PM

quote:
Originally posted by smart51
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
quote:
Originally posted by smart51
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
Ahem, My zx12r Vortx RT+ passed SVA first time...


.. but was it easy?


Piece of wee as my loom was wired correctly



Loom nothing. I believe that getting the emissions right was a bit of a pain on the ZX12s, unless you'd like to elaborate...


The zx12r that had the problem was Trevors, his was wired wrong so that the fuel pump was permanently on, the zx12r ecu turns the pump on an off..

As a result there was too much fuel pressure on trevors which made the power commander erratic...

Mine was rght first time and Marc got the emissions right VERY quickly....

Sorry u were misinformed if you heard something different...

clutch_kick - 30/1/06 at 09:04 PM

hmmm if i find a Kawasaki 1200cc it would be a lot better for me. I've been told the agent for Kawasaki here is a very nice guy, and extremely helpfull for parts

cossey - 31/1/06 at 12:14 PM

quote:
Originally posted by clutch_kick
Hmmm ... ok ... well i'll plan things out on the Hayabusa gear ratios. Many thanks for the advice. 120 mph in 6th sounds pretty good to me, should be fun at the 1/4 mile

Can one change the final drive on a Sierra diff? ie .. go to a higher or lower ratio by changing the crown wheel and pinion?


if you keep it light a busa powered 7 will be very close to maxing out over the 1/4 mile if its limited to 120. it might be worth using a sierra 3.38 diff or a freelander 3.2.

clutch_kick - 31/1/06 at 04:37 PM

is the Freelander diff LSD?

NS Dev - 2/2/06 at 02:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by smart51
replacing the pinion is very difficult, I'm told. I looked into combining my 3.62 LSD with a 3.14 diff to make a 3.14 LSD. I was told to swap the diff part and leave the pinion well alone.

[Edited on 30-1-2006 by smart51]


Cheeky answer coming up, no offence meant....... but that would be a unique trick!!!

You can't change one without the other!!!! (unless of course you meant change the crownwheel AND pinion and I read it a bit wrong!)

[Edited on 2/2/06 by NS Dev]

smart51 - 2/2/06 at 03:46 PM

The crown wheel unbolts from the differential gear set. You can take a differential gear (and viscous coupling if fitted) and fit them to the casing, crown wheel and pinion of another diff.

It is harder to take the pinion and crown wheel from one diff and fit to the differential gear, viscous coupling and casing of another.

My most sincere aplologies for not being fully clear

mnr laptop - 5/2/06 at 10:59 PM

yep first zx12 we did was a nightmare, didnt get the fuel pump relay with the bike so ran a permanet feed ( big mistake ) ran fine for 5 mins then went into fault mode and immisions went sky high, this coupled with two faulty power commanders caused all sorts of problems, on marks we kept the pump relay and it was plain sailing, its like every first car we have done there are the little bits and pieces that test you then the second is straight forward

best regards

marc

G.Man - 6/2/06 at 10:04 AM

And it's still running sweet, starts first turn of the key, idles smooth, and revs nice..



Just wish I could drive it now... damn cypriot customs..

lol

clutch_kick - 17/2/06 at 03:26 PM

i found the ZX12R Gear ratios, and i'm using them in the Quaife gear calculator. Other then the Final Diff ratio, is there any other ratio i must include in the calculation?

Primary reduction ratio 1.596 ?
Final reduction ratio 2.556 ?

thanks.