G.Man
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 12:08 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
G.Man - you won't hit nearly 200bhp without the ram-air system which only comes into effect at 150+mph which is pretty much unachievable in a 7
of any 'ilk. Holeshot Racing are one of (if not) THE best tuning places in the UK. He held the land speed record on one of his handbuilt (BUSA
TURBO (700bhp))bikes. He knows everything there is to know about bike engines - mapping/tuning/etc ect. Marc will probaby know him as he is also a
racer-type guy. He is VERY well known amongst racers for his experience, so - however knowledgeable you are, I doubt you will surpass him on this
occassion.
He did state, our headers held the engine back approx. 3~4 bhp but here was nothing more to be gained from the ZX12R engine without masses of money -
the RAMAIR system is key in this engine and neither of us can use it to it's effect. Therefore 200bhp is unattainable unless you know different
Jack has stated he has tried equal and unequal length headers and the diference is hardly measureable on a Rolling Road.
[Edited on 27-11-05 by Hellfire]
My Brother ran the only ramair dyno in the country for bikes so I do know a little about the effect of ramair...
It is worth about 10% power at the top end, but nobody uses it for tuning the bikes and 200bhp is easily achieved on a non-ramair dyno on the
zx12r...
Kawasaki's stock 178 bhp is quoted sans ramair and an extra 22 bhp is easily achieved with a 6 degree ignition advance and the other mods I have
quoted...
I am not a super-expert on bikes, but I was a chief tech for a BSB team for some time so I do know my bike stuff...
Hell, holeshot doesnt even have a gas analyser for the exhaust, so without the proper tools.....
Ramair is not the demi-god everyone thinks it is, almost every 600+ class bike in the world uses a pressurised airbox these days including the busa,
gsxr 600-1000 r6-r1 etc etc...
The power on these motors is due to the rpm and torque relationship... ramair is just used as an excuse on underperforming engines... If you can get
200+ bhp at the rear wheel with just a bit of gas flowing on a GSXR1k, R1 fuel injection etc etc and over 190bhp on a ducati v-twin on a non-ramair
dyno its sure as anything that you can get it on a zx12r or busa with less effort...
The main problem with the BEC cars on the dyno is the transmission losses thru a car diff and reverse box that severely distorts the rear wheel/crank
figures...
Hellfire, have you sealed your clean air system off yet? Are you running a PC3 USB or a PC3R?
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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G.Man
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 12:12 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
Jack has stated he has tried equal and unequal length headers and the diference is hardly measureable on a Rolling Road.
[Edited on 27-11-05 by Hellfire]
Then his findings disagree with every major exhaust designer in the world....
I shant be taking my car there for setup...
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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NS Dev
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 01:04 AM |
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My thoughts also!!!
I know very little about bike engines, but they are only engines after all, they still use the same principles and equal length headers are CRITICAL
to max power figures.
The irony is that for road driving they are not critical at all as torque spread is more important and having the exhaust "come on" at one
particular point in the rev range will not help the torque spread at all (though it will obviously maximise the power/torque available at that tuned
rpm)
Anyway, I know of several ZX12R's making over 200hp in autograss without aftermarket cranks or rods so what's the issue????
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Hellfire
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 08:29 AM |
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The issue is G.Man's car fully laden is 640kg - therefore not for the track/racing (LSD ZX12R engine). When I said unequal perhaps I should have
stated within a slight difference of each other. The differences in the slightly unequal length headers were unmeasurable on a rolling road, his
statement not mine - we tended to question this stement however, for reason's as stated. Westfield produce a very large diameter header and bore
exhaust with unequal length headers - according to him it looses them 20-30bhp IIRC. So contradictory statement's there then...
If you don't wanna take your car to him that's your choice - his credentials are very well rated. As he has one of 3-4 rolling road
setup's in the country authorised by powercommander to run bike engines on a car setup - eg one axle (two wheeled one axle bike engine car
(think about it?)) you are chopping out probably 25% of your rolling road setup's already. If you haven't fitted a Power Commander then
you needn't be concerned. Have you tried looking for a suitable Rolling Road for a bike engine you cant use a car setup as most don't have
the facility to do Power Commander. You can't use a bike setup - no wide rolling road?
I agree the ZX12R engine can be tuned above 200bhp, but I also said "without spending lots of money" - new cranks/cams and all the rest of
the shananigans IMO is lots of money!
FFS - why does it usually end up being taken out of context and things said that haven't always been said?
G.Man - look carefully on our video and you can see the exhaust gas analyzer - where are you getting your info from regarding Holeshot??? You
can't setup a Power Commander (accurately or otherwise) without an exhaust Gas Analyser? (AFAIK) We are running the non-race version (PCIII-USB
as it's not for racing) without fuel alteration therefore giving us a major disadvantage with losses that add up to it not performing very well
at all in comparision.
ATEOTD - what does it matter - is it a competition? Isn't it all good natured opinions?
Regarding the blue smoke - haven't you fitted a dry sump? May just be a rogue drop of oil on the exhaust or something... be careful though
:-S
[Edited on 28-11-05 by Hellfire]
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G.Man
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 10:44 AM |
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Sorry hellfire, didnt mean to start a row...
A car was sent to holeshot for emissions setup and jack said he couldnt do gas analysis on it as he didnt have a gas analyser.. his statements not
mine..
I already have a PC3 USB and have advanced the ignition timing 6 degrees (moved the ignition pickup) which gives about 10bhp...
I am lucky in that I live in Northampton, and have a few rolling roads nearby that can setup the PC3, but they arenet "dynojet
recommended" as they dont use one of their dyno's...
The blue smoke is an issue related to the removeal of the clean air system, apparently, when you seal it off it can suck in some oil from the seal
around the cam cover if its not sealed perfectly, when you rev the engine and come off the throttle...
I am going to try another way of blocking it off to kill the exhaust backfiring but still allow some "flexibility" in the exhaust
vaccum... or I shall just have to seal off the cam cover better...
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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G.Man
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 12:54 PM |
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OK the pics you have all been waiting for
Cycle wings will be fitted as soon as the brackets get here from powder coaters... they are already drilled and fitted, just a quick bolt on job...
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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RichieC
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 12:57 PM |
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Weeeeee, looks excellent.
DD2 looks fine to me, cheers mate, youve just convinced me not to b e a tight ar5e and buy one
Thanks for the pics
Rich
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NS Dev
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 01:03 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
The issue is G.Man's car fully laden is 640kg - therefore not for the track/racing (LSD ZX12R engine). When I said unequal perhaps I should have
stated within a slight difference of each other. The differences in the slightly unequal length headers were unmeasurable on a rolling road, his
statement not mine - we tended to question this stement however, for reason's as stated. Westfield produce a very large diameter header and bore
exhaust with unequal length headers - according to him it looses them 20-30bhp IIRC. So contradictory statement's there then...
If you don't wanna take your car to him that's your choice - his credentials are very well rated. As he has one of 3-4 rolling road
setup's in the country authorised by powercommander to run bike engines on a car setup - eg one axle (two wheeled one axle bike engine car
(think about it?)) you are chopping out probably 25% of your rolling road setup's already. If you haven't fitted a Power Commander then
you needn't be concerned. Have you tried looking for a suitable Rolling Road for a bike engine you cant use a car setup as most don't have
the facility to do Power Commander. You can't use a bike setup - no wide rolling road?
I agree the ZX12R engine can be tuned above 200bhp, but I also said "without spending lots of money" - new cranks/cams and all the rest of
the shananigans IMO is lots of money!
FFS - why does it usually end up being taken out of context and things said that haven't always been said?
G.Man - look carefully on our video and you can see the exhaust gas analyzer - where are you getting your info from regarding Holeshot??? You
can't setup a Power Commander (accurately or otherwise) without an exhaust Gas Analyser? (AFAIK) We are running the non-race version (PCIII-USB
as it's not for racing) without fuel alteration therefore giving us a major disadvantage with losses that add up to it not performing very well
at all in comparision.
ATEOTD - what does it matter - is it a competition? Isn't it all good natured opinions?
Regarding the blue smoke - haven't you fitted a dry sump? May just be a rogue drop of oil on the exhaust or something... be careful though
:-S
[Edited on 28-11-05 by Hellfire]
Neither was I trying to be a pain in the ass, just report my view/experience.
I'll just quickly point out that I did say over 200hp WITHOUT changing cranks and rods..........which I would also consider expensive!!!
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G.Man
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 01:32 PM |
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Yeah, no point in arguing about it, at the end of the day if it only makes 180-190bhp it will be fine...
Mine has "equal" length headers, bar a few mm's so isnt perfect, and I doubt it will be a huge difference in the grand scheme of
things...
Sorted the blue smoke, so no worries there anymore...
Hellfire, had a look at the vids on your page, including the donnington "MNR breakdown" or should I say, pitlane induced fuel
starvation... lol, couldn't see the gas analyser, but what the hell... he may have just been using a lambda probe which is sufficient for engine
tuning...
I note yours is backfiring in that video which is a problem with the clean air system sucking air into the exhaust... if you seal that off the car
will run a lot cooler, particularly the headers, and the backfiring will cease... along with the flame spitting...
It will also give about 2-3 more bhp due to better scavenging (at present a lot of the scavenging is lost due to the exhaust sucking thru the reed
valves instead)...
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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olv
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 02:05 PM |
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the car looks simply stunning.
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G.Man
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 02:15 PM |
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http://galifrey.my-bulldog.com/pages/galifrey_my-bulldog_com/MOV00237.zip
Video of the exhaust note and backfire, pre sealing of the Kleen Air system...
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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RichieC
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 02:29 PM |
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Lovely
I agree with that level of popping being indicative of a slight problem, but I was always led to believe (from various sources in rallying) that a bit
of crackling on the overun was due to good scavenging (just a bit though )
If you didnt know better, you would first think that amount of popping and flaming would be due to overfueling, but if it was sucking air, I guess it
would have the same effect
Cheers
Rich
[Edited on 28/11/05 by RichieC]
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G.Man
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 03:04 PM |
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Yes normally its overfueling, but the zx12r and indeed all the kawasaki bike motors now i think, use a system of ducts thru cam cover mounted reed
valves to draw air into the exhaust system. This continues the "burn" in the exhaust and heats the cat up good and proper...
When you ditch the cat and the stock exhaust all it does is causes huge backfires on overun, so the racers just block them off...
I would think there is a degree of overfueling going on as well, but since the kleen air system was blocked off, the exhaust no longer backfires, so
issue solved for me...
Still a few things to tinker with, but I gotta have summat to do once I am in Cyprus eh...
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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RichieC
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 03:10 PM |
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Oh yes, wouldnt be a kit if that was it finished
Rgds
Rich
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G.Man
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 03:19 PM |
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Jobs I have yet to finish...
1. Heat/stoneshields on rear wings
2. heatshield on body around headers
3. Relocate Digidash to behind steering wheel cutout
4. sort bonnet/nose/scuttle panel fit (its well dodgy)
5. Fit cycle wings
6. Fit remainder of DD2 sensors (oil and water temp, fuel pressure)
7. Sort sticky handbrake cam on offside caliper
8. rolling road setup
9. Thrape the goddam tits off it
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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RichieC
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 03:22 PM |
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Where you getting your stone guards from?
Seen both plastic and polished ally, I think depending on car colour they can both look great.
When you say DD2 to behind steering wheel cut out, where do you mean, Im being thick.
Was SVA man ok with where it was, could you read it ok then or did you have a whopper Sierra wheel on for SVA and its only the smaller diameter which
is obscurring it.
Rgds
Rich
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Hellfire
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 03:33 PM |
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No probs all... be very interested in the method of extracting more bhp though... maybe a meet sometime?
Glad the smoke's sorted... interesting comments re: clean air system. G.Man - with that exhaust on (non-SVA I presume ) are you planning on
tracking wherever you go in Cyprus? The engine is very loud and we're having to throttle it back using the original can to get below 105Db.
Emmigrating or what? Cyprus is a lovely country at any time stayed in my mates villa in Ayios Tyckanos ((?) speeling erorr posibbly) for a number of
years. Makes it more than attractive when the white stuff is outside (like right now!!!) 
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G.Man
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 03:49 PM |
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Most of the mods can be found on zx12r.org once you sift thru the bullshit
Gauges are only obscured by smaller steering wheel, its gonna mount on the end of the steering column shroud where the old wheel used to sit...
Best way to be honest is fit a PC3R to adjust the ignition as well as the fueling... makes a huge difference.. oh and make sure you are not running a
restricted model..
Love your tidy wiring Hellfire, mine has no space left on the scuttle panel... lol
Yes emigrating to Cyprus, fed up with thieving uk bastards, shite weather, expensive beer and fags, speed cameras etc etc...
Will be just outside nicosia somewhere, sorting a house out this week...
We ran a fireblade can for sva, I am guessing its well over 100db now, but a lot of that is induction noise... unbelievable how noisy they are on a
pipercross filter
Meet probably gonna be hard now, as I am in cyprus from 1st to 18th and car ships out on the 14th... I intend to do a few hillclimbs and sprints in
cyprus when I get the time...
[Edited on 28/11/05 by G.Man]
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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Hellfire
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 04:03 PM |
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I envy your emmigration choice of countries. Cyprus Comfort... mmmm Hope you enjoy it - may even get out there next year (holiday) maybe if you
stay on the forum we could meet up for a beer or 6
Thanks for the suggestions re the PC3R we were aware of this model but for our purposes found it a little too expensive for what we required, also it
wasn't available at the time of ordering - our's is a 2004 model (B2). It is very likely that it is restricted too... we know of the box
to unrestrict it but again, it's already a beast to handle as it is. Also with the fact that Dad hasn't been to Spec Savers yet (Hellfire
1 write off) he's not getting more power until he does!
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G.Man
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 04:08 PM |
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Yup B2 deffo restricted... needs a muzzy bonneville box...
If you come out to Cyprus, be sure to give me a shout, of course I will still be a regular on this site... lots more of my antics to come yet
Will mount my video cam on the car and take it for a spin thru some of the mountain roads...
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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Hellfire
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 05:55 PM |
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Sorted - video imminent is it then?
Mount the camera on or near a corner to improve resonance damping. What mount do you have?
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G.Man
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 06:21 PM |
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no mount yet, any you can suggest? cam is a sony network handycam mini dv trv80e
Opinions are like backsides..
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Hellfire
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 10:30 PM |
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B.Hague
LINKY
In camera supports item SC2 and BL. A few people have them and work exceedingly well.
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G.Man
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 10:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
B.Hague
LINKY
In camera supports item SC2 and BL. A few people have them and work exceedingly well.
Cheers dude, reasonable price as well
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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G.Man
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| posted on 7/12/05 at 04:04 PM |
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Well my baby sets sail for Cyprus tomorrow, and will arrive around the 7th of January... Right at the start of the rainy season, lol...
Cant wait to take it for el blasto...
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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