Essentially the glow plugs are heating up twice.....no idea if that would help on a modern diesel......the jeep engine would be at home in a tractor
Hi everyone
We have a 55 plate Range Rover Sport 2.7 TDV6 that the Mrs drives. It's been spot on up to now, but in the cold on the last couple of mornings
it's not wanted to start. I've not much experience with diesel engines so looking for some advice please!
It's happy to start once it's warmed up a bit (as in, left in the sun for a few hours), and once the engine has run for a bit it starts up
perfectly. The battery was only changed last year so it's got plenty of cranking power in it. When it's cranking there is plenty of white
smoke from the exhaust which I assume is atomised diesel passing through the cylinders and out the exhaust therefore I guess the fuel system is
working ie it's not air in the fuel lines or anything.
I guess the likely culprit is knackered glow plugs, however the manual says that if the car detects a glow plug problem the light will stay on after
the engine starts which it doesn't. Also a bit of reading online suggests that they like to seize in the head on these engines so I'm
looking at that job with a high level of fear!
So, for the sake of keeping mobile, what is the recommended technique for starting a diesel engine from cold when the glow plugs are dodgy? I read
that it's not possible to 'flood' a diesel engine like you can a diesel so is it best just to keep cranking and hope it eventually
fires?
Can glow plugs be 'tested' by looking at their resistance?
If a knackered one snaps in the head, am I any worse off than I am now? By that I mean if a plug is not working now am I in any worse situation if I
try to get it out and it snaps? I read somewhere that the engine will start without all plugs working but will be a bit lumpy for the first 30
seconds or so. For the sake of keeping the thing running I would be happy with that.
(Note that we're probably going to trade it in come the Spring anyway so this just needs to be a temporary fix!)
Cheers, Chris
Measuring the glow plug resistance is a good start, just look for one that is very different to the rest.
Before then try keying the ignition for 5 seconds before cranking it over to get the plugs hot, in the old days you waited from the glow plug light to
extinguish before cranking.
quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
Measuring the glow plug resistance is a good start, just look for one that is very different to the rest.
Before then try keying the ignition for 5 seconds before cranking it over to get the plugs hot, in the old days you waited from the glow plug light to extinguish before cranking.
On our old jeep I find turning the ignition key twice before attempting to start the motor helps.....bit of a faff but starts clean every time.
Essentially the glow plugs are heating up twice.....no idea if that would help on a modern diesel......the jeep engine would be at home in a tractor
I've been told the quality of diesel can play a part when it's cold, although I'm not sure what truth there is in that. I know that I've had petrol cars struggle with crap fuel, I would expect the same could apply with diesel?
Glow plugs get HOT! With the aid of a bit of bottle and quickreactions you can put a finger on each glow plug and if it get hot then - a move finger and b test the next one. Not tried it on a TDV6 but have on many other diesels and the one or two that stay cold are usually the culprits. That said I bottled it on a friends diesel as I could only get one of the four failed glow plugs out of the aluminum head but afterwards it did start but sounded very lumpy for a while
quote:
Originally posted by ianhurley20
Glow plugs get HOT! With the aid of a bit of bottle and quickreactions you can put a finger on each glow plug and if it get hot then - a move finger and b test the next one. Not tried it on a TDV6 but have on many other diesels and the one or two that stay cold are usually the culprits. That said I bottled it on a friends diesel as I could only get one of the four failed glow plugs out of the aluminum head but afterwards it did start but sounded very lumpy for a while
Almost certainly will be the glow plugs. They can be difficult to remove but there are a few tricks that are being discussed on the
Disco3 forum.
You could also invest in a remote unit for your FBH to warm things up before you need to start it.
[Edited on 29/12/14 by tul214]
They have very long thin glow plugs and snap very easily as a 3" smooth section sits in the head and the top part just isn't long enough to unstick them if they are tight . There is a pneumatic tool to help wind them out like a reverse impact driver but the thin plugs are a pain in lots of diesels , done one tdv6 and snapped 5 out of six despite doing everything possible to get them moving . Ended up taking the body off to pull the heads off and drill them out on a mill to keep the angle and not burst through .
Thanks guys
That Laser 'broken glow plug removal kit' looks like a reasonable precaution if I was to attempt to DIY the plugs. Has anyone had any
experience of using it?
What happens if/when they snap? Is the cylinder still sealed? Could I just leave them disconnected? After all, for the ones that are already
knackered, they are not going to work any less!
Will they come out with regular 'long reach' sockets or do I need a special glow plug one?
What is the best starting technique in the mean time? Do I just crank the thing until it eventually fires? Or am I just asking for a knackered
starter by doing that?
Chris
Turn ign on for 10 seconds turn off for 10 seconds turn on for 10 seconds then crank if it fires up with less cranking its Defoe a glow plug issue lets the glow plugs have a longer heat heat cycle .
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisW
quote:
Originally posted by ianhurley20
Glow plugs get HOT! With the aid of a bit of bottle and quickreactions you can put a finger on each glow plug and if it get hot then - a move finger and b test the next one. Not tried it on a TDV6 but have on many other diesels and the one or two that stay cold are usually the culprits. That said I bottled it on a friends diesel as I could only get one of the four failed glow plugs out of the aluminum head but afterwards it did start but sounded very lumpy for a while
I assume you mean take them out of the head first? To be honest, for the sake of £15 each, if I could get them out I would replace them.
However, I do have one of those laser thermometers (have you seen how cheap they are from China these days?). I wonder if I could diagnose which ones are knackered in situ if I get the Mrs to turn the ignition on whilst I look at the temperatures? Or do you think the head would soak all the heat away?
Chris
the Laser thing sounds an improvement on my touch with a finger idea
My dad's disco, with the same V6 diesel, started having starting issues a couple of winters ago. It was the glow plugs (no warning lights came up). A whiff of ether and it started like a champ each morning. He then went ahead with glow plug replacement and half of them were seized and sheared, big bill to sort that out. I'd have just kept using cold start until the weather got warmer.
The laser tool is ok but you can't accurately keep it level and the tap to grab hold of the lower section is virtually the same size as the diameter of the hole so a fraction out and your into the head . It's quicker to remove the body to get the cylinder heads off and get them out with the head and drill fixed in position. Ended up being a 2k bill for £60 worth of glow plugs
quote:
Originally posted by Benzine
A whiff of ether and it started like a champ each morning.
Hi Chris
You've got me worried now - I've got the same engine in my Discovery 3 - all fine at the moment, hope it stays that way.
Done a quick search of the Disco 3 forum for you. Quite a few people have had success with this problem by fitting a remote start for the FBH from
Bell Autoservices - it warms the coolant up for about half an hour before driving, with the added advantage it heats the car up quicker, helps with
defrosting etc. might be worth a look.
I've read horror stories of body off, heads off, to remove the broken heater plugs with bills £2k+ !
Might worth a try with the FBH ?
Rob
[Edited on 30/12/14 by Wheels244]
[Edited on 30/12/14 by Wheels244]
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisW
quote:
Originally posted by Benzine
A whiff of ether and it started like a champ each morning.
Do you mean that Easy Start aerosol stuff? Didn't realise that would work on a diesel! Where did you spray it? Obviously in the intake, but I guess the filter will soak it up so perhaps you have to disconnect the airbox each time?
(air intake was inside the drivers side wing, don't know about range rover) Link for you - showing out of stock at the moment - might be worth a phone call.
https://secure.bellautoservices.co.uk/store/webasto-fbh-controller-rf-plip-activated/
Easy Start - can raise the dead :-)
The first one I did was my partners wife's car and no one would bite the bullet with the ratchet to get them out . They all moved but tightened up and snapped despite trying every trick to keep them moving . Above freezing point a common rail should get going without heat with a couple of coughs to clear out any unburnt fuel . The next one I did we managed to get three out and changed them . Hasn't been in touch over the last few days so I assume three is enough to get it going
quote:
Originally posted by froggy
The first one I did was my partners wife's car and no one would bite the bullet with the ratchet to get them out . They all moved but tightened up and snapped despite trying every trick to keep them moving . Above freezing point a common rail should get going without heat with a couple of coughs to clear out any unburnt fuel . The next one I did we managed to get three out and changed them . Hasn't been in touch over the last few days so I assume three is enough to get it going
quote:
Annoying that we've only just spent £1k having the rear cambelt done.
Ouch. Sounds like"£££££££
Is there less chance of them snapping when hot or cold?
Seems like a poor design, as a ptecaution, mebbe worth removing plugs each year but who can be bothered with that.
Definitely worth doing a resistance test on them before trying to remove from head. A good one should be around 7 to 10 ohms between centre glow plug connection and cylinder head.
Stick easy start in the in take just before cracking.never disturb anything on that engine.....