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The End of Diesel Cars is Nigh :-) :-)
britishtrident - 8/9/16 at 07:56 AM

Brilliant news VAG and Renault intend to phase out diesel engines in small to mid sized cars because cleaning up the emmissions sufficiently to meet requirements is not viable.

nick205 - 8/9/16 at 08:07 AM

They'll get around it. Diesel engines lack the century of development and refinement of petrol engines, but the real world driveability and economy of them cannot be denied.

mcerd1 - 8/9/16 at 08:27 AM

quote:
Originally posted by nick205
They'll get around it. Diesel engines lack the century of development and refinement of petrol engines, but the real world driveability and economy of them cannot be denied.

^^ most of them seem to be looking getting around some of the compromises of traditional petrol's (i.e. to get most of the efficiency of diesel with less NOx and particulates)

at the moment that seems to be small capacity, direct injection with fancy variable / twin scroll turbo and fancy variable valve control (aka; twin air, ecoboost, etc....)

but I've seen some ridiculously complex looking variable CR engines too, as well as the simpler double expansion ones like this:
http://www.ilmor.co.uk/capabilities/5-stroke-engine


[Edited on 8/9/2016 by mcerd1]

WesBrooks - 8/9/16 at 08:31 AM

Based on current technology not so great for those who do a reasonable mileage each year and make use of a larger car. Petrols are catching up, but slowly. VAG/Skoda's recent 1.0 petrol with 115bhp sounds very promising. All that said it'll probably be 15-20 years before decent diesels are no longer available second hand. I'd like to go petrol, and would be looking at about the current spec of Superb in 3yrs time. I strongly suspect I will be on a diesel again but smaller - probably 1.6.

Two cars from now hopefully petrols are comparatively affordable (or I work closer to home ;-) ) because some aspects of the diesels (such as the tendency to gunge up their inlets) if driven gently are not helpful!

mcerd1 - 8/9/16 at 08:48 AM

quote:
Originally posted by WesBrooks
I strongly suspect I will be on a diesel again but smaller - probably 1.6.

Two cars from now hopefully petrols are comparatively affordable (or I work closer to home ;-) ) because some aspects of the diesels (such as the tendency to gunge up their inlets) if driven gently are not helpful!

my mum does almost nothing but short <5mile trips, she got a 1.6 diesel polo at 2 years old (59 plate, the 90ps version I think) and its been in for 3 recalls, and had endless issues with almost blocking the DPF - these little diesels just don't get hot enough
I've heard a rumour that VAG were telling there dealers to steer customers like my mum towards the petrol cars because they couldn't find a way round the problems....

having said that what does short trips and stop start driving do for the life of any turbo even on a petrol ?

I think I'll stick with my NA petrol

[Edited on 8/9/2016 by mcerd1]

nick205 - 8/9/16 at 09:33 AM

I've had VAG 1.9 and 2.0 TDIs (currently have a Touran 1.9 TDI) - all very capable cars with plenty of "real world" grunt when required. MPG is good and I find them cheap to service (myself) and run.

I also had a Volvo V50 "Drive" 1.6D. The V50 itself is IMHO one of the best looking small estates around, but to live with was awful IMHO. The internal design looked OK on the face of it, but Volvo had made IMHO a pigs ear of the space available. It's saving grace with the 1.6D was very good MPG of 65+ on a motorway run.

bi22le - 8/9/16 at 10:05 AM

I have a 2.0 TDI A4 and dont mind the engine. The stop start and cruddy commute I have still returns 50mpg (on the trip so not fictional) which is witchcraft in my eyes.

So what equivical car would you guys recommend I get next. I like VAG cars and Audi in particular. I am happy to go petrol. I am considering an S5 or S4 next as I am going to be using a bike soon to commute.

Attilauk - 8/9/16 at 10:23 AM

I had the EGR valve replaced 3 times on my old Passat 1.9 Tdi, in the end I had it removed and mapped out. Luckily the car was pre dpf as a number of friends have had no end of trouble with them.

I'm fed up of diesels at the moment, they are just so bland to drive. I have swapped the Passat for a mk2 Octavia Vrs Estate and the wife has a Mini cooper 1.6 petrol too. They cost far less to buy than the diesel equivalent, had lower miles than a diesel equivalent and were better specced too. They might cost a bit more to run day to day but its going to be a good few tanks of fuel before that overtakes the difference in initial outlay.

Mr Whippy - 8/9/16 at 11:40 AM

I've just done a long drive in a 1.2 skoda superb and tbh the performance was really good even overtaking despite it being a fair sized car, averaged 55mpg on petrol on windy Scottish west coast roads which is more than my 2.0 tdi cmax managed. It was no contest that tiny petrol was vastly better in all respects.

SJ - 8/9/16 at 11:41 AM

quote:

I think I'll stick with my NA petrol


For short runs you can't beat them. Our old Toyota has done abot 2k a year all its life [18 years old] and has never had a problem.

britishtrident - 8/9/16 at 12:31 PM

quote:
Originally posted by nick205
They'll get around it. Diesel engines lack the century of development and refinement of petrol engines, but the real world driveability and economy of them cannot be denied.


Not true a lot of development was ploughed into high speed diesels over the last 100 years Junkers developed diesel aircraft engines in the 1930s, post war in the UK Napier, Rootes and Rolls-Royce all did a lot of diesel development.
The compression ignition cycle has advantages over the spark ignition Otto cycle but fuel oil burns more slowly than spirit or gaseous fuels and that is a fact there is no escaping. The petrol engine is changing again within 5 years Turbo GDI lean burn will be universal

[Edited on 8/9/16 by britishtrident]

mcerd1 - 8/9/16 at 12:34 PM

quote:
Originally posted by SJ
quote:

I think I'll stick with my NA petrol

For short runs you can't beat them. Our old Toyota has done abot 2k a year all its life [18 years old] and has never had a problem.

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
...which is more than my 2.0 tdi cmax managed...

mine is a 1.8 duratec HE c-max - the shear weight and size of the thing doesn't help performance or economy (over 2m wide, ~1.6 high and 1380kg+)
I'm sure the extra torque of the diesel would make a big difference, but I know it would give me more problems in the long run (especially given the age of cars I tend to have, at only 6 years old when I got it its my newest ever car!)

I get between 24 and 28MPG according to the car (but I estimate from receipts its more like 25 to 29MPG)
but thats all on <5 mile trips and I'm not necessarily the most economical with my right foot...


used to get 37MPG with no effort at all doing the same type of driving - but that was a 45hp Pug 106 with a 4spd box and a single choke carb
but its hardly practical with 2 kids and all the stuff that goes with them....

[Edited on 8/9/2016 by mcerd1]

nick205 - 8/9/16 at 01:25 PM

quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
quote:
Originally posted by nick205
They'll get around it. Diesel engines lack the century of development and refinement of petrol engines, but the real world driveability and economy of them cannot be denied.


Not true a lot of development was ploughed into high speed diesels over the last 100 years Junkers developed diesel aircraft engines in the 1930s, post war in the UK Napier, Rootes and Rolls-Royce all did a lot of diesel development.
The compression ignition cycle has advantages over the spark ignition Otto cycle but fuel oil burns more slowly than spirit or gaseous fuels and that is a fact there is no escaping. The petrol engine is changing again within 5 years Turbo GDI lean burn will be universal

[Edited on 8/9/16 by britishtrident]



Interesting - I wasn't aware that large organisations had put in much effort. My point was the fact that petrol FI engines have been CR for quite a while whereas diesel engines only recently. It does make me think that if car makers put in a little more effort then diesel could be bought forwards inline with petrol. It may still be more polluting by default, but I'd imagine some development could overcome that too.

dinosaurjuice - 8/9/16 at 02:46 PM

quote:
Originally posted by nick205
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
quote:
Originally posted by nick205
They'll get around it. Diesel engines lack the century of development and refinement of petrol engines, but the real world driveability and economy of them cannot be denied.


Not true a lot of development was ploughed into high speed diesels over the last 100 years Junkers developed diesel aircraft engines in the 1930s, post war in the UK Napier, Rootes and Rolls-Royce all did a lot of diesel development.
The compression ignition cycle has advantages over the spark ignition Otto cycle but fuel oil burns more slowly than spirit or gaseous fuels and that is a fact there is no escaping. The petrol engine is changing again within 5 years Turbo GDI lean burn will be universal

[Edited on 8/9/16 by britishtrident]



Interesting - I wasn't aware that large organisations had put in much effort. My point was the fact that petrol FI engines have been CR for quite a while whereas diesel engines only recently. It does make me think that if car makers put in a little more effort then diesel could be bought forwards inline with petrol. It may still be more polluting by default, but I'd imagine some development could overcome that too.


Petrol engine common rail the fuel pressure is only 3-5 bar. Diesel common rail is 1200-2000 bar in cars, i guess the development of these systems took a while. I think its even higher in trucks and ships The injection pump technology from gas turbines has no doubt contributed

If petrol and diesel had the same energy per volume (or mass...) then, with the same compression ratio, a petrol engine would be theoretically more efficient. The main reason diesels do more MPG is being able to use a higher compression ratio, the fuel has more energy per liter, and the efficiency is higher at lower engine speeds.

Personally I'm not sure how much more advanced combustion engines will get before battery technology takes over.

mcerd1 - 8/9/16 at 03:36 PM

quote:
Originally posted by nick205
It does make me think that if car makers put in a little more effort then diesel could be bought forwards inline with petrol. It may still be more polluting by default, but I'd imagine some development could overcome that too.

as far as I know its down to cost (as always)

EGR valves were introduced to try and clean up emissions, but an alternative idea that was supposed to give better results was extreme high pressure fuel injection (several times higher than the already very high pressure common rail systems that are now in use)
problem is that the higher pressure gets the more expensive the parts get (never mind the precision needed for good control) - just look at how expensive common rail diesel is next to ye olde fashioned diesels (i.e. 90's and earlier)
never mind all the issues that come with these highly strung systems (remember all the water in the fuel issues when they first appeared - diesel isnt exactly a pure fuel )


also the laws on NOx emissions are getting tighter - the higher the CR of the engine the more likely it is to make NOx and diesels have very high CR's (its the whole point of them)

Toprivetguns - 8/9/16 at 05:29 PM

Only a matter of time before VED on diesel vehicle starts to rise.

scudderfish - 8/9/16 at 05:37 PM

My Mazda6 2L Diesel was a fine car, but it looked like it was about to go expensively wrong so I thought I'd change it. I'm mid 40's and thought it was time I had a Jag. My wife said "Don't get another diesel, they pollute too much" Oh well, if I limit myself to petrol, I'll just have to have a 5 litre V8 MPG on my commute is between 18 and 22 but I don't care!

chillis - 8/9/16 at 06:03 PM

Many OEM's are considering this route as the RDE emissions will make using diesel and gasoline only engines virtually impossible to pass. (at least for realistic development costs). Gasolinel engines will be replaced by 2021 with hybrid and diesel will be replaced with electric/hydrogen
NOx is a problem for direct injection engines both gasoline and diesel

Mr Whippy - 8/9/16 at 06:44 PM

I'm still trying to work out how my 02 plate 2.0 petrol Volvo managed to get 0% Co2 readings on it last MOT bit weird to me..

gremlin1234 - 8/9/16 at 06:52 PM

quote:
Only a matter of time before VED on diesel vehicle starts to rise.
simpler to put higher tax on the fuel.
also tax rates will be changing in april, since there are so many cars that duck in below the current breakpoints.

JoelP - 8/9/16 at 08:27 PM

I'd be surprised if we don't see the end of IC engines within 10 years. Battery technology is advancing rapidly.

mark chandler - 8/9/16 at 09:00 PM

Batteries may work for short to medium commute however what about lorries, ships and planes?

They may try and chase us out of cars with excessive tax, the fuel that powers them will be around for a long time yet thankfully.

mcerd1 - 8/9/16 at 10:58 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
I'm still trying to work out how my 02 plate 2.0 petrol Volvo managed to get 0% Co2 readings on it last MOT bit weird to me..

are you sure that's not CO rather than CO2

The carb'd 106 I had hardly ever registered any CO% either, it also only ever recorded 3ppm for HC as well - none of the efi cars I've had since come close...

[Edited on 8/9/2016 by mcerd1]

[Edited on 8/9/2016 by mcerd1]

WesBrooks - 9/9/16 at 05:45 AM

Mine's a Superb 170 2.0 td-cr. Had 100,000 on the clock when I bought it in 2012 and will have 220000 by the end of next week. Always recorded tank to tank mileage and have a lifetime economy of about 48mpg. Had one 700 mile tank, the max it's ever taken in a fill is 56l. Had a few 55mpg tanks. Swapping to a 1.6 would save about 500 a year. I've had a fair bit of work done on it but that's not bad considering I'm doing more than 2.5 time national average.

Extender light throttle at 50mph (m60, average speed cam) appearred to block the car up. Had a breakdown that left no fault codes twice, but has cleared up after changing driving style to less mpg hunter to moderate acceleration and sitting on the motorway limits.

I'd love electric but don't think the overall lifetime cost, durability, or range are close yet. Petrol is close. Heard about research on dieseling petrol, laser ignition, and throttleless designg which may all help.

Ironically I've a feeling the strict regulation of the emissions actually results in some of the more game changing technologies being delaid. You can see the R&D teams saying right we're so many % better than euro x, hold that technology for next time.

DJT - 9/9/16 at 11:20 AM

I thought a I read this week that there is talk of a posbbile scrappage scheme for 'old' diesels. Recenly I have noticed more and more 2008 vintage diesels chucking out some terrible soot and who knows what other invisible toxins. So maybe not a bad idea. I guess this is the back end of the life of the surge of diesels that were sold as diesel became popular around a decade ago. Full disclosure: I've a '57 plate Volvo D5.

morcus - 9/9/16 at 05:52 PM

I wouldn't rule out electric planes in the future looking at the rate batteries have been improving.

Electric lorries maybe even closer, in that they already exist and Siemens are trying to have some overhead cables fitted in Germany to run electric Lorries (I don't know if they're hybrids or if they charge up a battery to work off the system).

Anything could happen in the future, and the technologies that succeed aren't always the ones that are empirically best. I've seen a lot though from many sources (AA, IET, General news) to suggest European governments are gearing up to reduce diesel use and I think if diesel fuel suddenly cost a lot more and congestion charges and bans from certain areas are introduced, they will disappear fairly quickly.