omega 24 v6
|
| posted on 26/2/11 at 09:55 PM |
|
|
quote:
Lets face it, a clever guy can build a nice seven out of scrap and workshop sweepings...
Thanks for the compliment.
As for the bullshit about engineers we keep reading on here well I take it all with a pinch of salt.
Nev can argue that a " Professional engineer" is someone with a degree.
I disagree.
A " professional engineer " is anyone with papers to say so.
I have an HNC in production and mechanical engineering with a full 4 years workshop based apprenticeship ranging from all types of manual machines to
mechanical assy and inspection , all types of welding and research and developement departmenttime under my belt, toolmaking, tool grinding and
finally jig boring experience. Couple that with my electrical and welding skills DIY skills and an ability to troubleshoot and problem solve then
I'd like to think that my ability was rather quite good.
Also IMHO many of you on here ,including BT ( who is obviously old school like me ) will feel/ be the same.
Look at it from the other side. A guy goes through UNI and gets a degree which makes him a " professional engineer". or does it?? He MAY
never have seen or used any of the tools or machines needed to make the parts he designs. he may not know or be aware of the many limits and pitfalls
of individual machines or processes. He will most likely NOT be proficient in the hand skills that a shop floor guy has taken years to learn.
So in summary.
An engineer is a person who is knowledgeable in his/her own field of expertease whether it is hands on tools, or design and calculation. One cannot
function without the other when it comes to higher levels of design and as such EACH of them should have RESPECT/TOLERENCE for the others Knowledge.
None of us knows all, but together we can achieve great things.
A person with both of these skills ( Knowledge and hands on ) is a rare commodity in todays world.
To you I may be a grease monkey who thinks he is an engineer.
To me you may be a graduate with a bit of paper that says he is an engineer.
In truth when it comes to any kitcar the end product ( regardless of how it starts out) is testament to the person who builds it.
Just like comparing Mercedes with Renualt the finish/end product is relative to skill,finish, money and time invested.
The Robin hood brought the kitcar market to many people. Myself I was inspired by a tiger cat E1 (which I almost bought second hand) but ended up
with a scratch build which I am over the moon with.
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
Neville Jones
|
| posted on 27/2/11 at 11:37 AM |
|
|
Some of the best true 'professional engineers' I've encountered have been through the old school, where they started as apprentices,
then did the proper relevant studies at night for many years and got their 'bits of paper'. They had the knowledge of how to make things,
and with the proper studies, knew why the things were designed that way. These men had hands on experience, AND knowledge to design using proper
numbers.
Same men I owe a debt of gratitude to, for passing on their knowledge, before, during, and after I got my multiple 'bits of paper', and
ongoing still today while they still live.
Greasy hands and hard work don't make an engineer, without the 'bits of paper' to show you have a full understanding of the design
process.
I've met far too many so called 'engineers' who didn't have the faintest idea of how to do a very basic tensile or shear
stress calculation.
Now, all you self professed 'engineers' better go google how to do a simple stress calculation, to tell me just how good you are and equal
to a proper professional engineer. 
Or tell me that you don't need to do numbers to know if something is right or not. That's why you see people on here using 12mm bolts
for suspension pivots, when a 12mm 8.8 bolt will hold up more than 10 average locosts on its own!
On my last build I used 6mm 16.9 shoulder bolts, which will hold up at least one locost. So, I overengineered it by a bit!
Check what's on an F1 car, or LM car. Designed by engineers, that's why the bolts are so small, as are the parts they support, and lifed,
because the engineers understand stress life cycling and safety factors.
Cheers,
Nev.
|
|
|
Irony
|
| posted on 27/2/11 at 11:54 AM |
|
|
Posts like this worry me
I am not a engineer or professional engineer, nor do I have any experience with building kit cars. In fact the word mechanic/engineer or even
'fitter' could never be applied to me, ever. But I am building a kit car.
I can use my common sense when building stuff but I have no real experience to base this on. When it comes to things like chassis design, suspension
design etc I am totally reliant on my manufacturer getting it right. I probably wouldn't know whats 'right' or 'wrong'
anyway.
It worries me that I could be building a car with a chassis that is essentially a bit 'pants'. It seems to me that one of our kit car
mags should put together a small team of qualified engineers, sports car professionals etc to review and judge basic kitcar chassis old and new.
I think the word professional means nothing anyway.
|
|
|
MikeRJ
|
| posted on 27/2/11 at 12:46 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
I've met far too many so called 'engineers' who didn't have the faintest idea of how to do a very basic tensile or shear
stress calculation.
Now, all you self professed 'engineers' better go google how to do a simple stress calculation, to tell me just how good you are and equal
to a proper professional engineer.
I'm certain there are many professional engineers that wouldn't have a clue how to do this, but then again you seem to be assuming that
all branches of engineering involve the design of structures or mechanisms.
Have a look at the list of defining features for a "professional". The very first in
the list is
quote:
A professional is a person that is paid for what they do. Qualifications have little to do with being a professional as the world's
"oldest profession" is strictly a monetary gain career. An amateur maybe more qualified than a professional but they are not paid, thus
they are an amateur.
You experiences with certain kit cars show that those manufacturers have or had a problem with getting consistent build quality. The original issue
was not so much the consistency of the items that RH sold, but rather the quality of the underlying design. It doesn't need a genius to see the
2B chassis is poor, and with the horrendous bodges and ridiculous design decisions made by it's creator it's difficult to argue any other
way IMO.
The zero is vastly better kit, but then it wasn't designed by "Tricky Dicky" AFAIK.
[Edited on 27/2/11 by MikeRJ]
|
|
|
omega 24 v6
|
| posted on 27/2/11 at 04:01 PM |
|
|
Sorry Nev you are just not getting it are you?? Many of us have pieces of paper ( how do you know we don't???) When i did my apprenticeship we
did shear and tensile stress calculations we did pressure and flow we did metalurgy we did NDT
facrors of safety etc etc etc. Many of them long forgotten but nonethe less were learned AND UNDERSTOOD.
So I coulld look out all my old books and notes and I could do the calculations and given the machines amd enough time I could make the parts and
assemble them.
Do you have a chip on your shoulder about non Uni qualified blokes or is it just that you are the best in the world? I don't get why you feel
the need to shout down people you may have never met.
In a tricky situation I rather be stuck with 10 hands on guys with experience and knowledge and hand skills at my side than 10 people trying to tell
me the " ideal and perfect" way to get it done.
A tree falls in a forest on a desert island and the hands on guys are making a canoe, and we are out of here to beer and women.
A tree falls in a forest on a desert island and the paper qualified guys are working out why it fell and did it make a noise if no one saw it. THEN
your wishing the hands on guys had not left so quick.
Sorry but your coming across all wrong ( don't know if you mean to but you are ). We all have a place in the grand scheme of things simple as
that. No one is much better than the other.
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
|
|
|
Strontium Dog
|
| posted on 27/2/11 at 05:08 PM |
|
|
I've been an employer and have had guys with papers and guys without them. To be honest, the last guy we took on out of Uni hadn't a clue
and had to be taught how to use a mill! I can do differential calculus and J numbers etc. (or at least I could 25 yrs ago) and have never used any of
it in the real world doing the things I have.
I'm not saying that it is not necessary for some people to have relevant qualifications, I'd like to know that the guy who designed the
wings of the plane I'm on did his sums correctly, but it is horses for courses and one of the very best workshop engineers I ever met is
dyslexic and hasn't a piece of paper to his name! In an office or design room papers can be useful but in the workshop or field it is the
practical ability of the worker that counts!
Just my thoughts of course!
|
|
|
AndyW
|
| posted on 27/2/11 at 05:16 PM |
|
|
What a complete pointless thread this has turned into. Original post, pointless and all it was intended to do was provoke an argument, all the
bickering is pointless and we all have views on all makes of kit, so going on and on and on and on is again, pointless.
|
|
|
BenB
|
| posted on 27/2/11 at 05:19 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by AndyW
What a complete pointless thread this has turned into. Original post, pointless and all it was intended to do was provoke an argument, all the
bickering is pointless and we all have views on all makes of kit, so going on and on and on and on is again, pointless.
And your point being?
|
|
|
mcerd1
|
| posted on 27/2/11 at 05:29 PM |
|
|
I've got a bit of paper to say I'm a mechanical engineer, but I wouldn't say that makes me a good mechanic (all the hands on stuff I
know I got from my dad not uni)
I've had to train up several other folk that have alo got bits of paper (for strutural design)
In my experience its down to the individual, going to uni should give you the background knoledge and a way of approching problems - but more than
half the guys we've had are totaly usless and just don't get it 
I'd much rather find someone whos started out with some real hands on experience
the likes of BAE have gone back to apprenticeships, and if you show a bit of ability they'll send you on to uni from there - they say its the
only way to get the skills they need
[Edited on 27/2/2011 by mcerd1]
-
|
|
|
omega 24 v6
|
| posted on 27/2/11 at 06:33 PM |
|
|
Not a pointless post at all.
The robin hood 2B while it is not generally thought of by many to be the best setup/design nevertheless brought a lot of pleasure to many people.
The Zero IMHO is good value for money BUT as with any kitcar it is the builder who turns out the finished product. Some are good some not so good and
some a disaster BUT the potential for a tidy and IVA passable car is defineatly there ( well there are some on the road so it must be).
ETA
quote:
the likes of BAE have gone back to apprenticeships, and if you show a bit of ability they'll send you on to uni from there - they say its the
only way to get the skills they need
Old school ways I rest my case.
[Edited on 27/2/11 by omega 24 v6]
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
|
|
|
designer
|
| posted on 27/2/11 at 06:55 PM |
|
|
as always, each to his own.
I have a 2B, and I cruise around the French roads, and I love it!!
|
|
|
mikeb
|
| posted on 27/2/11 at 07:13 PM |
|
|
This thread is making chuckle, I.don't know much about robin hoods but didn't like the look of the early ones, but as long as they are
safe and the owners like them who cares. As for professional engineers, I love the hands on school of hard knocks versus uni. Engineering is a very
broad discipline, we should have respect for all the levels, graduates need a good few years under there belt just like any other profession. The
argument seems to be you need to understand hands on to be any good, wrong, there are plenty of engineering disciplines that don't, speak to a
requirements engineer, a process engineer, simulation specialist, there all professional engineers. It's not just about basic stress calcs and
basic manufacturing. You'd be hard pushed to find many chief engineers without a degree. We all have our place
|
|
|
Steve Hignett
|
| posted on 27/2/11 at 07:43 PM |
|
|
I also think the thread has descended somewhat, however I think the first person that started the downward spiral has as fair a point as the people
that started the Uni Vs Old school discussions...
I work in the composites industry. The company is very small, 4.5 people. We make Carbon bodywork for the BSB and WSB and nowadays Caterhams etc.
My job role there is an odd one, I'm not a skilled composites person, quite the opposite in fact, the young lad part time from school is more
skilled than me IMO.
Yet, even though, I have no clear role, I seem to work harder than anyone there. Often putting 12 hr, and even 16 hr days. I don't get a second
where I'm not constructing, solving, designing, fixing, "sorting" something...
I am now 35 years old and have had no education past school leaving age really, so I coudn't even call myself a technician if I wanted too!
I have built more kitcars (and a variety of marques) than most people, yet I would not consider myself an expert on the subject matter at all!
I used to give advice on here, but don't tend to anymore unless it's a bit unusual or takes my fancy, because I feel (and I'm not
alone) that there are a few people on here that are relatively immature in their dealing, esp whilst online! And I have noticed over the years that
even good advice can get lost amidst bickering and bad advice given by people that just want to up their post count or desperate for attention and
want to tell others how to build/live!
However, I digress, My boss ordered some cheap business cards for me as I often nip to Oulton for TD's etc due to works proximity to the track.
When he was doing the design, he inserted the usual phone number, web site etc and underneath my name he put the title Chief Engineer. I was
horrified. It was so embarrasing. The first business contact (building the Arash AF10) was a qualified engineer...
I guess that's the difference...
Then we had our second visit to the Arash site and it became apparrant that the stories he told were the only ones he had and was a complete numpty!
And just a final note;
I used to walk past the masses of RH's at shows etc thinking, I'd need a much better engineered car... But at no point did I think I was
better than the owners or looked down on them - they were/are happy with a lifestyle and a certain standard and that's their choice - life is
too short to be so petty as slag them off. And what's more, if I were going to slag them off, I'd do it directly rather than being petty
and trying to use someone else's descriptions to do it for me............................
[Edited on 28/2/11 by Steve Hignett]
|
|
|
gdc
|
| posted on 27/2/11 at 10:39 PM |
|
|
look guys i havent come on here to have a go , rhsc cars have given a proportion of the public a chance to own a seven style car , good or bad , there
are many hundreds of sevens on the road that whithought rhsc there would not have been .
dont hide up your own arse , we are here .we can build good cars , and to a better standard than some manufacturers .
a lot of vists to our site are not logged and the info we have learned is being used elsewhere we know that
we dont care , carry on building .use the info .
we build hard to put together cars , we know that and appretiate the end result.you need to re think your ides re rhsc
we , think out of the box . we work together . we make it work whatever the prob .
find another comunity that works this well . in the kit car comunity ..
we are individual, never the same .it does work it dont work these arnt rhsc words .make it work .
graham
|
|
|
loggyboy
|
| posted on 27/2/11 at 11:08 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by gdc
look guys i havent come on here to have a go , rhsc cars have given a proportion of the public a chance to own a seven style car , good or bad , there
are many hundreds of sevens on the road that whithought rhsc there would not have been .
dont hide up your own arse , we are here .we can build good cars , and to a better standard than some manufacturers .
a lot of vists to our site are not logged and the info we have learned is being used elsewhere we know that
we dont care , carry on building .use the info .
we build hard to put together cars , we know that and appretiate the end result.you need to re think your ides re rhsc
we , think out of the box . we work together . we make it work whatever the prob .
find another comunity that works this well . in the kit car comunity ..
we are individual, never the same .it does work it dont work these arnt rhsc words .make it work .
graham
Is your keyboard broken, or is your punctuation just awful?
|
|
|
omega 24 v6
|
| posted on 27/2/11 at 11:27 PM |
|
|
quote:
The argument seems to be you need to understand hands on to be any good
No the arguments are 2 fold.
1 You DO NOT need a uni qualification to call yourself and engineer that's a fact. I have an industry based engineering apprenticeship and an
HNC in mechanical and production engineering and papers that call me an engineer. And I suspect do others on here are in the same boat. Why should
someone else decide to say we are not??
2 The robin hood AND laterly the gbs zero Have and will give many people a path into owning a sevenesque vehicle the quality of which ( as it is
with even MK or MNR etc etc etc) is dependant on the individual builder.
As the thread is going of topic, and I feel I have made my point, it seems likely that we will end up going round in circles.
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
|
|
|
MakeEverything
|
| posted on 27/2/11 at 11:42 PM |
|
|
all those lost to kit building because of a horrible experience. They say a happy customer tells his best friend, and an unhappy one everybody he
meets.
I know a modern manufacturer that fits the above, but thats another thread alread done to death.
ETA: incidentally, i owned a Dutton Phaeton S2, which was my first car. Got it running, thrashed it, and sold it on to break even and buy the car i
have now. Similarly, a pretty fundamental car, but without it i wouldnt be into kit cars now.
[Edited on 27-2-11 by MakeEverything]
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
|
|
|
MakeEverything
|
| posted on 27/2/11 at 11:47 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by omega 24 v6
quote:
The argument seems to be you need to understand hands on to be any good
No the arguments are 2 fold.
1 You DO NOT need a uni qualification to call yourself and engineer that's a fact. I have an industry based engineering apprenticeship and an
HNC in mechanical and production engineering and papers that call me an engineer. And I suspect do others on here are in the same boat. Why should
someone else decide to say we are not??
2 The robin hood AND laterly the gbs zero Have and will give many people a path into owning a sevenesque vehicle the quality of which ( as it is
with even MK or MNR etc etc etc) is dependant on the individual builder.
As the thread is going of topic, and I feel I have made my point, it seems likely that we will end up going round in circles.
1. I agree. I am qualified with an electrical discipline, with nearly 15 years practical experience in electrical and mechanical which qualifies me
for professional accreditation. This accrediting body, call me an engineer, not vice versa.
2. The same with the Dutton range. Mine cost me £850 to get me going.
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
|
|
|
indykid
|
| posted on 28/2/11 at 12:04 AM |
|
|
can we agree on one thing though, gas fitters should never have been able to call themselves heating engineers?
the title 'engineer' should have the same status it does on the continent. a statement of professional and technical competency.
that's not to say anyone who isn't one is less of a person, but the term is far too broad in common use. for instance, a nurse isn't
a GP isn't a surgeon. they all have differing specialisations but all are important.
back on topic, if it wasn't for that ropey green 2B at the harrogate kitcar show in 2002, i wouldn't have ever thought i could afford to
build a kit car. the 2b made me save (and then i saved some more and stretched my budget to buy a better value kit)
the rhocar forum was a great learning experience back in the day (around about 2002-3) and even when i was 17, some of them (admittedly not all of
them) looked past the fact that i was young and talked to me like a human being at shows. a far better atmosphere than the cliquey bullshit at most
other stands. the people are far and away the best bit about robin hoods
|
|
|
Mr G
|
| posted on 28/2/11 at 12:13 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by MakeEverything
ETA: incidentally, i owned a Dutton Phaeton S2, which was my first car. Got it running, thrashed it, and sold it on to break even and buy the car i
have now. Similarly, a pretty fundamental car, but without it i wouldnt be into kit cars now.
Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a
car that you are still paying for - in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes
and the car, and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it.
|
|
|
scootz
|
| posted on 28/2/11 at 09:33 AM |
|
|
I have a bit of paper that says I can swim 100 metres in my pyjamas whilst towing someone by their chin and can save a rubber brick from drowning at
the bottom of the deep end... am I an engineer?
God I hope so... I've always wanted to be exotic!
It's Evolution Baby!
|
|
|
mikeb
|
| posted on 28/2/11 at 10:34 AM |
|
|
I love being mis quoted,
I thought my response was very balanced. I don't remember saying you needed a degree to be an engineer, but do understand you'd be annoyed
if people suggested you can't be called one because you haven't got a degree.
Engineering is a very broad discipline, you need the relevant experience and qualifications for the job you do.
Apprentichips are a good foundation and then as other have said with a good employer the career paths are there to do a HNC or a degree if needed.
What I'm not so keen on is the Graduate bashing (i.e you can't be an engineer if you don't know how to use a milling machine), a
Mechanical Enigineering degree is very broad in the subjects taught, this gives graduates a very good base to them specialise in one area or another
(by further qualification or work experience), my point was not all mechanical engineering graduates go on to become a mechanical design engineers (in
fact I bet the percentage is very small). And I'd agree those that do won't be that great to start with, put them in a good design office
enivironment (not that they exist much anymore)with access to the hands on manufacturing and after a couple of years they will have improved
massively.
So nope you don't need a uni degree to be called an engineer, I think we all agree on that pretty much anyone can be called an engineer.
To be a professional engineer, all you need to do is be employed in the engineering trade.
To be a highly qualified engineer, depending on your discipline you need the relevant bits of paper (thats what qualification means).
Which one of those would I want designing bits of my car, probably a team of all them using their strengths to come up with the best solution.
My reference to a Chief engineer say in JLR or BAE Systems. they have to oversea a large design team covering a whole host of disciplines and need a
flexible background and education to have discussions and agree designs. One meeting they could be discussing composite drive shafts and relying on
their subcontractor with the specialist knowledge, the next minute they could be discussing the ballistic properties of steel or an electrical control
system, hence they need a very broad technical background to be successful.
Still can't comment on Robin Hoods though, I bet the starts to actual finished build isn't much worse than the locost or haynes roadster
(I'll be impressed if I ever get mine finished).
Closing remark, let promote engineering at alls its levels, its one of the best and exciting careers you can get into!
|
|
|
Richard Quinn
|
| posted on 28/2/11 at 10:54 AM |
|
|
I was trying to resist joining in on this one. There does seem to be a bit of a fixation here about professional engineers and the
automotive/mechanical arena. Don't forget that engineering is much wider than that and does still include professional engineers, even chartered
engineers. I know several chartered chemical engineers and quite a few chartered civil engineers who wouldn't know a decent chassis if you drove
it over them. However, if you want a chemical plant or a bridge building, they are pretty good.
|
|
|
designer
|
| posted on 28/2/11 at 11:25 AM |
|
|
Before our modern times, engineers 'engineered' things, 'designers' designed things, clerks 'clerked', sales
'assistants' assisted, and supervisers 'supervised'.
Did you know that the Labour government decided years ago that the term 'engineer' has become so diluted and missused, that it is,
officially, no longer classed as a 'trade'?
Truely an insult to all the 'engineers' that made the UK, until all the accountants took 'account' and ruined it!!!
[Edited on 28-2-11 by designer]
|
|
|
gdc
|
| posted on 28/2/11 at 10:25 PM |
|
|
is this a spelling test or grammer and punctuation test . we are talking about a piece of kit that can kill you and others
dont pull me up for poxy grammer . i have to say that some of you are toooo far up your own arses to recognise a good car, i feel you feel superior
,please proove me wrong .
sorry guys its the truth .
we all love our ride , it might be a locost a mnr a tiger or any other mark . why diss another mark ?
cos thats not what you have , or dont understand .
go with it we are all diferent , we as hoodies like to be different , you wont see 2 hoods the same .
we know the short commings of the hoods , the s7 s ect 2bs early 3as even .i have 2 lightweights .
we know the probs and we work with them .
i would put my zero up against any compariable car .
i ant winging about the quality of my kit . its great £2400 for the kit £700 for the st 170 engine type nine
and a bit of playing and a fully running car .go on then talk your way out of that .
graham
|
|
|
