flanders
|
| posted on 1/9/16 at 11:16 AM |
|
|
ZX12 or modern R1 engine?
So I'm looking for some advice for my winter engine upgrade project. I'd love some real world experience and advice on running these
engines from you guys on. Reliability and install costs.
I'm currently running a zx9 in my mk and looking to jump to the next level. I already have a good water cooling system and oil cooler.
I'll need to upgrade my full fuelling systems as I'm still using an old plastic tank (no baffles or swirl pot) with no way of fitting an
in-tank pump or adding a return line (unless I'm wrong here) and a single fuel line.
Other option is to fit a remote fuel pump
I'm also running a 3:62 LSD which isn't ideal for These engines but I'll be keeping it for now.
I'm thinking either 5VY/4C8 R1 or maybe a ZX12.
I know these motors have very different characteristics so I'm looking for some real world advice on pros and cons for each.
Cost wise the ZX12 with full running bikes being available from £1500> And from what I've seen oil system wise they need a billet sump with
rotating pickup (650+vat) if I can find one. Not sure On the fuelling set up on these. Form what I've read I'll need a sausage filter to
replace the standard air box and power commander to remap.
The R1 will cost more to buy (approx £1500 for juat an engine and loom) but only needs a sump baffle and breather mods (relatively cheap) and could
use my single line fuel system with a remote pump. As far as I o ow he tha are air box can still be used
Spec wise they are the same sort of bhp but the zx12 has much more torque, which is obviously a nice bonus
Usage- probably 90% road and 10% track
Other bits I know I'll need are, exhaust manifold and cradle. I could recoup some money from selling my zx9 set up and Digi dash etc
|
|
|
|
|
Jamesc
|
| posted on 1/9/16 at 11:31 AM |
|
|
Although nice, the ZX12 shouldn't need a rotating pick up, there are plenty of people (including me!) who run a chopped standard sump with a
baffle plate. I also have an accusump installed which cost around £200 and the standard sump can be modified fairly cheaply - I actually have a spare
one on my shelf.
You can't use the standard air box on the 12 because there isn't one as such - It uses the frame of the bike to make an enclosure. So yes
to sausage filter or make an air box.
For info, I use an APS Bosch 044 equivalent fuel pump (currently £25 + vat from JJC). You will need a return line to the tank though.
Hope that helps. If I think of anything else, I'll update!
|
|
|
rj
|
| posted on 1/9/16 at 12:09 PM |
|
|
I can give some info regarding a ZX9r to ZX12r swap - did mine last winter. Well worth the effort, it is so much quicker. it needed a fuel swirl pot -
I made that, fed by the Zx9 pump, pot contains the Zx12r pump, and needed larger bore feed and return lines. On mine the 12r filter/oil- water heat
exchanger fouled the chassis rail, so I had to cut out part of the chassis rail & reinforce. Cooling was reasonably straightforward, but the 12r
pipes are larger bore than the 9. The prop adaptor has different splines - bigger on the 12r, but same as I think the zzr1100.
For the sump, some people have chopped/widened the standard one, some have dry sumped, some use 360 degree swingers ( best to do a search on here for
threads ) I made my own 360 swinger, I used the top 30mm of the standard sump, and fabricated a round pan to bolt on the reminants of the std sump,
made a swinging pickup, with a stainless tea strainer mesh brazed on ! the sump alone took about a month of my spare time. A thrash round Donnington
has established that it works well.
I made an airbox fed via an inline Ramair filter, an airscoop inside the nose, on top of the rad feeds air, hopefully giving a bit of ramair boost to
the engine, or at worst a good cold air feed. I did consider just using a filter fitted to a backplate on the throttle bodies - as per my ZX9 setup,
but decided against.
Exhaust manifold is from Alldens exhausts in Market Raisen piped into a std ZX12r silencer
It needed a new engine cradle, although I used the same bottom mounts as used with the 9, position isn't exactly right, so will be re-done this
winter
I havnt fitted a Power Commander yet, had a brief rolling road session that established it was running rich, but will be getting one fitted over this
winter
As you may have guessed I prefer making stuff to spending money !!
At times I was well fedup with sorting out the various bits/ delays/problems, but kept at it, could have done it quicker had I spent a bit more money
|
|
|
flanders
|
| posted on 1/9/16 at 12:45 PM |
|
|
Some excellent info on the 12 there, much appreciated.
So with the 12 I'm looking at a whole new fuel system back - front, no big surprise, and probably something I'm happy to do.
So is the zx12 ok with a basic chopped and baffled sump ( same as my zx9 is?) I'd want maximum ground clearence for the scottish back roads.
I've read there is a maximum of 20mm you can chop off?
What about oil breather mods, anything required?
|
|
|
coozer
|
| posted on 1/9/16 at 01:21 PM |
|
|
Put a 6l V8 in it!
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
|
|
|
flanders
|
| posted on 1/9/16 at 01:40 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by coozer
Put a 6l V8 in it!
I've already got a v8 in my life, bike engine is the way forward for these wee cars 
|
|
|
zx12r dug
|
| posted on 1/9/16 at 01:42 PM |
|
|
Having built 4 mks zx9 .R1 carbs .R1 injection. Now currently have a zx12r have to say the 12 does seem to have a bit more punch to it running power
commander 5 for a 2001 motor it pulled factor power at 174 at the crank and 160bhp to the back wheels as for the sump martin keenan chopped and
baffled mine and added a little now it holds a extra litre and ground clearace is good the sump is level with the botton of the chassis think he
charged me £80 might of gone up a little now it was a couple of years ago
[Edited on 1/9/16 by zx12r dug]
|
|
|
CosKev3
|
| posted on 1/9/16 at 02:40 PM |
|
|
Another thing to factor in is the mileage on the Zx12r bikes you see for sale that you speak of,lots of them are pretty high mileage now due to the
age
|
|
|
rj
|
| posted on 1/9/16 at 04:21 PM |
|
|
my breather is nothing special, just a pipe from the breather on top of the box up to a small foam filter
|
|
|
twybrow
|
| posted on 1/9/16 at 04:47 PM |
|
|
Another happy zx12r user here. I have had a couole of issues with reliability, but they were all of my making. It goes like stink and i love it. I
have a standard chopped sump with baffle plate. I made a custom carbon fibre airbox, and adapted an MNR exhaust. It made 196bhp at the fly after a
remap! Engine was straightforward to wire up and get running if you take your time and work methodically.
If i were doing it sgain, i woukd use the bike clocks, as i have never managed to get my Koso to read the revs correctly....
|
|
|
Kev99
|
| posted on 1/9/16 at 06:35 PM |
|
|
I fitted a R1 4C8 about 3 years ago did the mods u stated
My MK Indy is mainly used as track days so it gets a lot of abuse prob only do 500 miles a year on the road
The only problems i get is on track when I'm totally abusing it the engine breathes a little and i get a bit of oil in the catch tank
When it was on the rollers at Northampton motorsport they said it was around the 170 BHP that's running a sausage filter not the airbox as it
wouldn't fit under bonnet
But note if u want the ECU out of sight like me there's a lot of wires to extend as its fly by wire
also keep the exup wired in as a few of the race guys had a few problems with this engine when using the other things for it
Hope this helps
Kev......
Also 3.62 diff is perfect for the road and track with this engine
But u can never beat CC's so the 12 will be better than the R1 if ur wanting full on track/racing but on the road i would guess there wont be a
lot in it
|
|
|
motorcycle_mayhem
|
| posted on 1/9/16 at 06:51 PM |
|
|
The absolutely insane scream of the R1-5VY does it for me, if Carlsberg built musical engines..
Simple to install, no issues with the electrics (nothing there really). Happy to run all day, even on track with slicks, with just a baffle plate and
heavy overfill. Simply will not die.
Requires that the head breathes into a catch tank, to return to the sump.
|
|
|
Jamesc
|
| posted on 1/9/16 at 08:09 PM |
|
|
No breather mods for me either, just connected the port to a catch tank.
I haven't had mine mapped yet, but I made the exhaust using the standard exhaust chopped about.
Airbox:
 
Airbox
|
|
|
greavesy7
|
| posted on 1/9/16 at 09:06 PM |
|
|
What sandwich plate are you running on your zx9 ?
|
|
|
TimC
|
| posted on 1/9/16 at 09:26 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kev99
I fitted a R1 4C8 about 3 years ago did the mods u stated
My MK Indy is mainly used as track days so it gets a lot of abuse prob only do 500 miles a year on the road
The only problems i get is on track when I'm totally abusing it the engine breathes a little and i get a bit of oil in the catch tank
When it was on the rollers at Northampton motorsport they said it was around the 170 BHP that's running a sausage filter not the airbox as it
wouldn't fit under bonnet
But note if u want the ECU out of sight like me there's a lot of wires to extend as its fly by wire
also keep the exup wired in as a few of the race guys had a few problems with this engine when using the other things for it
Hope this helps
Kev......
This is music to my ears. Or eyes, actually.
|
|
|
flanders
|
| posted on 1/9/16 at 09:40 PM |
|
|
Loads of good info to digest here guys thanks very much. Hopefully a decent complete bike will turn up for sale soon
|
|
|
flanders
|
| posted on 1/9/16 at 09:41 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by greavesy7
What sandwich plate are you running on your zx9 ?
no idea mate sorry, I didn't fit the cooler
|
|
|
rj
|
| posted on 2/9/16 at 11:50 AM |
|
|
Another vote for the bike clocks, need a Speedo Healer to get the speed reading correctly, I always mount them so they can be seen thro the top of the
steering wheel - can never understand having them in the middle of the car !
|
|
|
zx12r dug
|
| posted on 2/9/16 at 12:35 PM |
|
|
Like to see a pic of them mounted behind the steering wheel neatly as there big clocks
 
Description
[Edited on 2/9/16 by zx12r dug]
[Edited on 2/9/16 by zx12r dug]
|
|
|
flanders
|
| posted on 2/9/16 at 12:41 PM |
|
|
I'm interested to find out what info the zx12 clocks show? Oil temp and pressure? Water temp etc.
Can the bike fuel pump and sender be used in the car tank?
Also are there readily available wiring diagrams? I read that Haynes never did a manual for this bike
|
|
|
zx12r dug
|
| posted on 2/9/16 at 12:47 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by flanders
I'm interested to find out what info the zx12 clocks show? Oil temp and pressure? Water temp etc.
Can the bike fuel pump and sender be used in the car tank?
Also are there readily available wiring diagrams? I read that Haynes never did a manual for this bike
I used the sender but had to shorten the arm shows correct when low but shows full for a while as the tank is taller than the arm.clocks show water
temp and oil light.Always worth adding a volt gauge only a few quid
[Edited on 2/9/16 by zx12r dug]
|
|
|
Jamesc
|
| posted on 2/9/16 at 12:49 PM |
|
|
I have very high resolution colour wiring diagram for an A1 model. I got it from someone on here and printed it A0 size. It was really helpful, clear
and my wiring worked first time, so must be accurate!
Can't help on the clocks as I sold mine and use a ETB DD2.
|
|
|
flanders
|
| posted on 2/9/16 at 12:56 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by zx12r dug
quote:
Originally posted by flanders
I'm interested to find out what info the zx12 clocks show? Oil temp and pressure? Water temp etc.
Can the bike fuel pump and sender be used in the car tank?
Also are there readily available wiring diagrams? I read that Haynes never did a manual for this bike
I used the sender but had to shorten the arm shows correct when low but shows full for a while as the tank is taller than the arm.clocks show water
temp and oil light.Always worth adding a volt gauge only a few quid
[Edited on 2/9/16 by zx12r dug]
Nice one thanks. Yeah I'll add oil and volt gauges. I'm ised to the Digi dash which shows loads of info. I may look into keeping it, maybe
run both but that'll clutter up the dash
|
|
|
flanders
|
| posted on 2/9/16 at 12:59 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jamesc
I have very high resolution colour wiring diagram for an A1 model. I got it from someone on here and printed it A0 size. It was really helpful, clear
and my wiring worked first time, so must be accurate!
Can't help on the clocks as I sold mine and use a ETB DD2.
So the dd2 works ok then? That's good to know. Is h wiring diagram on electronic format? Could you send it to me by any chance?
|
|
|
Jamesc
|
| posted on 2/9/16 at 01:57 PM |
|
|
Yes the DD2 works great. It has an Aux light which I use for the neutral indicator. I do miss having needles spin round though, but that's
personal choice!
No problem, U2U me your e-mail and I'll send you a .pdf of the wiring diagram and the workshop manual. The manual shows you how the plumbing is
supposed to be and where the wires clip to etc, it's detailed.
If anyone else wants these docs, give me a shout and I'll send a mass e-mail later tonight/ this weekend.
|
|
|
