DarrenW
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| posted on 16/2/08 at 09:25 PM |
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Hypothetical Q time
Just a bit of Saturday night dreaming. Im not doing it but thought id open up a bit of discussion.
How fast is a good BEC? 0-60 and top end?
OK - here is the dream bit. You have a nice CEC. But at 600Kg and 120BHP (wheels) its not as fast as a BEC. The car must remain as a CEC.
1. How much power and torque do you need to compete with a lightweight 450Kg BEC?
2. What engine would you choose and why?
3. What gearbox and diff ratios would you go for and why.
Budget is king.
Discuss.
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donut
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| posted on 16/2/08 at 09:32 PM |
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0-60 = 4.5secs aprox
top speed = 125mph ish
Many thing are dependant on engine and setup etc.
Andy
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andywest1/
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DarrenW
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| posted on 16/2/08 at 09:53 PM |
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So what CECs can deliver that?
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colt_mivec
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| posted on 16/2/08 at 09:58 PM |
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Maybe a VHPD K series on throttle bodies
They push around 200hp and weigh in at around 70kg Approx
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nick205
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| posted on 16/2/08 at 10:00 PM |
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My first answer would be to fit a Powertec or Hole shot Hayabusa derived 2.6 V8 motor with a T5 cossie gearbox. Around 380 bhp in
"standard" tune or 450 bhp in 2.8 V8 "tuned" tune. Fit some really sticky tyres and get it all set-up properly and go beat
pretty much anthing I would imagine.
Back to the budget reality of your question.....
What about a 300+ bhp Duratec with a Quaife alloy 6 speed sequential gearbox and a serious diet of alloy uprights and calipers. Some lightweight
alloy wheels/tyres and carbon fibre seats and body work.
.....still not really "budget" is it 
I think the answer is that on a budget you have to fit a bike engine to achieve BEC weight and performance 
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donut
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| posted on 16/2/08 at 10:00 PM |
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erm...something light with a Turbo i would think or maybe a 200+ bhp vauxhall XE jobbie or cossy turbo. You are going to be hard pushed to initially
keep up with a bec with a cec as they deliver there power in different ways.
Andy
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andywest1/
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imp paul
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| posted on 16/2/08 at 10:06 PM |
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keep your cec lol 1200+rpm turbo bec 550bhp  MB CUSTOMS  MOVE TO THE DARK SIDE
o and mac1 let me down on my frame but spire sports paul did a top job
[Edited on 16/2/08 by imp paul]
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caber
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| posted on 16/2/08 at 10:22 PM |
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How about a 5 litre TVR version of the RV* with a supercharger, not too heavy loads of power but serious uprated back axle LSD and serious rubber will
be required to get power onto road!
Caber
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onzarob
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| posted on 16/2/08 at 10:24 PM |
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I get the instant performance of a BEC, but what about durability.
How long does it last with the 350Kg extra weight to push around etc. How much to rebuild th e gearbox/engine.
If you say the cost are over 20K miles, maybe a tuned duratec doesn't seem that expensive?
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eznfrank
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| posted on 16/2/08 at 10:35 PM |
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20k for most of us would equate to about 7 years driving??
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onzarob
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| posted on 16/2/08 at 10:42 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by eznfrank
20k for most of us would equate to about 7 years driving??
OK maybe not 20K but the strength of a BEC is not the same as a CEC.
I recon the latest Duratec is the best choice
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onzarob
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| posted on 16/2/08 at 10:44 PM |
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Oh I should of put 'Runs for cover!!!' at the end of that 
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DarrenW
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| posted on 16/2/08 at 10:47 PM |
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I think its widely understood that £ for £ not much can touch a BEC, especially now that the new generation kits also have lightweight components.
Point if this thread is to understand what spec a CEC would need to be to keep up with a ZX10 / ZX12 / R1 BEC weighing in at 450Kg.
If we assume a good BEC is 170bhp, P:W at around 350bhp per ton. Does this mean if your CEC is 600Kg then having 220 - 240bhp would get you close to
same performance?
Thanks for jumping in hicost. Ive never read what your overall spec is but it sounds rather good.
A good duratec seems like a good base for modern power. Not sure if anyone has supercharged one yet.
Nat - how does your car compare to BECS??
[Edited on 16/2/08 by DarrenW]
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onzarob
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| posted on 16/2/08 at 11:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DarrenW
If we assume a good BEC is 170bhp, P:W at around 350bhp per ton. Does this mean if your CEC is 600Kg then having 220 - 240bhp would get you close to
same performance?
Right ok, but what is the torque figures for a BEC?
A common saying is 'you buy on BHP and drive on torque'
Has anyone raced a BEC vs a CEC on a track and got a comparison.Miles ahead or closer than you would think?
(PS I have my Devils Advocate head on tonight!!)
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zilspeed
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| posted on 16/2/08 at 11:03 PM |
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I'm not the best at specific models of engine with the Vauxhall 16Vs. Alloy block 1.6 can make 250bhp and keeps up and beats all of the bike
engined cars. Don't bother looking any further.
That's what I saw last year and the year before at all the sprints and hillclimbs I went to. I fully expect this year to be the same.
Having said that, the driver is such an important part of the package, and you just can't buy that.
I could have all of the money in the world and be running 350bhp of powertec V8 and wouldn't beat the above combination.
It's such an abstract question as to almost be redundant. Unless of course you're just talking about drag racing, and I assume we're
talking about more than that.
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DarrenW
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| posted on 16/2/08 at 11:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by hicost
Just to add I always get the impression BEC are working harder than CEC to keep up the same pace, a bit like a cheetah that can run fast for a short
period then has to rest.
Consistency always will win through!
If you want to test your constancy enter the
www.guildofmotorendurance.co.uk Mallory park 6 hour event in May. 4 other cars off the forum have.
Nicely put. Its for this reason that i doubt the endurance of a BEC. Sure - when they are good they are very good, but there is always that doubt. No
substitute for cubes and torques.
In total performance stakes i cant help thinking that the limit of possibility has been exhausted with 7esque cars. There is more power to be had but
getting it down on the road is a nightmare.
Hers a contentious question - for BEC owners who know the cars should do 0-60 in 4.5 secs - how many can prove there cars can actually do it?
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DarrenW
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| posted on 16/2/08 at 11:11 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by zilspeed
I'm not the best at specific models of engine with the Vauxhall 16Vs. Alloy block 1.6 can make 250bhp and keeps up and beats all of the bike
engined cars. Don't bother looking any further.
That's what I saw last year and the year before at all the sprints and hillclimbs I went to. I fully expect this year to be the same.
Having said that, the driver is such an important part of the package, and you just can't buy that.
I could have all of the money in the world and be running 350bhp of powertec V8 and wouldn't beat the above combination.
It's such an abstract question as to almost be redundant. Unless of course you're just talking about drag racing, and I assume we're
talking about more than that.
Being a hypothetical thread we should maybe assume driver talent is a constant.
In the true world however we all know this is the biggest variable. I was mainly meaning cars potential here.
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imp paul
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| posted on 16/2/08 at 11:12 PM |
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ok eat your hat proof in pud " target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38TFetQAe2o&NR=1 0to 60 lol
[Edited on 16/2/08 by imp paul]
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DarrenW
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| posted on 16/2/08 at 11:19 PM |
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Just to pull the reigns in a bit. Assuming BEC performance is the goal and there is no need for BEC devotee's to defend there marque, Given that
an average BEC can perform 0-50 in 4.5 - 5.0 secs range. What CEC spec would you go for to give proven advantage assuming a reasonable budget should
be upheld?
Reliability of a BEC is not in doubt. We are only looking at proven performance data and driver talent should be considered to be a constant.
Maybe another bench mark should be - what spec would you opt for to challenge the Ultima 0 - 100 - 0 spec with a 7esque car.
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DarrenW
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| posted on 16/2/08 at 11:22 PM |
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Ill have to leave the floor open to you now. My tot of talisker is taking its toll.
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imp paul
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| posted on 16/2/08 at 11:26 PM |
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ok so to beat us bec lads you will need lol this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FvqIUBP5Gc
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JoelP
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| posted on 16/2/08 at 11:33 PM |
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s2000 or another tuned engine would beat most becs. I think CECs are easier to thrash than becs, besides the gearchanges, though becs like the
thrashing more.
Yuo cant get round the fact that for £3k you can have a sub 5 second car. Locosts kick ass, whatever engine you put in them!
Must say though, only the bec ever made me get out shaking after nipping to the shops for milk
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DarrenW
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| posted on 16/2/08 at 11:36 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by imp paul
ok so to beat us bec lads you will need lol this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FvqIUBP5Gc
Simply awesome. That must have been filmed many years ago. Petrol was only £0.86 per litre - imagine that!!
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imp paul
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| posted on 16/2/08 at 11:36 PM |
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i run a ep3 type r every day and i say that your not so right my imp will destroy my type r all day long hmmm let me think why have i spent so
much£££££ on my imp best ask malc MB CUSTOMS lol
[Edited on 16/2/08 by imp paul]
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DarrenW
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| posted on 16/2/08 at 11:40 PM |
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If i had plenty of cash my 2 car garage would probs be an Ultima and a BMW E30 M3 sport Evo (id leave the RR sport and S4 etc on the drive outside).
So with this in mind ive often wondered what a 7 would be like with M3 power. Difficuly choice between 4 cyl S14 and later 6cyl. That said V8
soundtrack is purely evocative, can a LS1 fit in 7 engine bay?
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