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Lithium Batteries in locator beacon -cause of 787 fire ?????
britishtrident - 18/7/13 at 03:33 PM

The AAIB report on the 787 fire at Heathrow points to the Lithium batteries in the aircraft's Emergency Locator Beacon being the most likely cause of the fire at Heathrow.

I am now getting very cautious of any electrical item fitted with Lithium batteries especially when on charge.

Bluemoon - 18/7/13 at 04:01 PM

quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
The AAIB report on the 787 fire at Heathrow points to the Lithium batteries in the aircraft's Emergency Locator Beacon being the most likely cause of the fire at Heathrow.

I am now getting very cautious of any electrical item fitted with Lithium batteries especially when on charge.


so you should; horrid things, all-ways surprised how few fire incidents there are. Electrolyte is normally a solvent, so when they vent due to abuse to prevent explosion (i.e. left to discharge or outside the recommended voltage range etc.) they "vent with flame" ! Old tech battery’s don't tend to vent much more than hydrogen this is actually safer than in effect venting something similar to petrol... They can't use water as the electrolyte as the lithium will burn... This also means putting the fire out is a PITA as water will make it worse.

I believe some lithium chemistry is safer than others; but you would be right to be worried!

Dan

[Edited on 18/7/13 by Bluemoon]

Mr Whippy - 18/7/13 at 04:40 PM

yeah always been tricky buggers, I always put iphones etc on a ceramic plate or on top of the hob when charging just incase they overheat as that can set off a chain reaction leading to fire. They have great capacity but are notorious for going up inflames, pity they are in so many things these days and people have become complacent. When they first came out on the model planes everyone was so careful

britishtrident - 18/7/13 at 05:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
yeah always been tricky buggers, I always put iphones etc on a ceramic plate or on top of the hob when charging just incase they overheat as that can set off a chain reaction leading to fire. They have great capacity but are notorious for going up inflames, pity they are in so many things these days and people have become complacent. When they first came out on the model planes everyone was so careful


And I thought I was the only one who charged is phone on top of the hob ;-)

MikeRJ - 18/7/13 at 05:10 PM

The emergency locator on the Boeing was powered by a lithium manganese dioxide battery which is a primary chemistry (not rechargeable). This is the same technology used in 3v "coin" cells and the disposable cylindrical cells used for some cameras. Don't confuse this with "Lithium Ion" or "Lithium Polymer" which you are correct to be wary of.

Chris_vrs - 18/7/13 at 05:18 PM

I used to use these batteries in remote control cars. Very common to charge them in fire proof bags as they don't like heat at all.

nick205 - 18/7/13 at 06:37 PM

So the millions and millions of devices out there filled with lithium batteries are all about spontaneously combust?

You need to get things on proportion!

loggyboy - 18/7/13 at 06:57 PM

Lol at charging on hob.

gremlin1234 - 18/7/13 at 07:12 PM

they did put the fire out with water, (having tried Halon first) - see aaib report -
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/special_bulletins/s5_2013___boeing_787__et_aop.cfm

the bulletin is only 3 pages, dry but actually easy to read,
also recommends that the emergency locator be disabled on 787's for the moment

JC - 18/7/13 at 08:40 PM

3000 aircraft with this model of ELT out there - why just take action against the Dreamliner.......

Fatgadget - 18/7/13 at 08:52 PM

Been messing around with lithium ion cells for the past couple of years or so ..and they BITE big time if mistreated. ...They pack a lot of energy in a small package though.

paulf - 18/7/13 at 08:59 PM

Are they putting Lithium batteries in electric cars now? if so I can see lots of them going up in smoke in the future as the batteries age and incompetent people work on the electrics.

David Jenkins - 18/7/13 at 09:10 PM

Many radio-control flyers use Lithium Polymer (LiPo) batteries in their aircraft - and treacherous things they can be too. The can burst into flame if they're over-charged, over-discharged, physically damaged and all sorts of other abuse. When they do ignite they give off all sorts of noxious gasses and a lot of very hot flames; and when they do ignite they're very difficult to put out - most domestic fire extinguishers don't work.

A quick search on YouTube for 'LiPo fire' will demonstrate what I mean - very scary.

Properly treated they are safe enough, and they have by far the best power-to-weight ratio of any battery - I use them in my multicopters - but I don't like or trust them one little bit. I often use LiFePo4 batteries - generally known as LiFe batteries - as they are a lot safer, but they just don't have the same power-to-weight ratio, so flights are shorter and with less performance; however, I trust them a lot more.

sdh2903 - 18/7/13 at 09:37 PM

quote:
Originally posted by JC
3000 aircraft with this model of ELT out there - why just take action against the Dreamliner.......


Simply because of its electrical teething issues and it just so happened that one went pop on a 787. Unlucky? Yes, good reason for tabloid hysteria, definitely.

Bare - 19/7/13 at 02:15 AM

Geez ...Tabloid Hysteria is right.
Those were NOT Lipo batteries. But that's just a minor nuisance factoid.
Nicad Batteries in Aircraft are dangerous as well. Ever seen the hole in the fuselage caused by a thermal runaway (meltdown) on one of an Aircrafts' Nicad Pack. These melt their way to freedom.. with some regularity actually>
Clearly Chicken Littles had best walk everywhere.

Mr Whippy - 19/7/13 at 06:31 AM

quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
quote:
Originally posted by JC
3000 aircraft with this model of ELT out there - why just take action against the Dreamliner.......


Simply because of its electrical teething issues and it just so happened that one went pop on a 787. Unlucky? Yes, good reason for tabloid hysteria, definitely.


One of the new weight saving measures of the Dreamliner is the use of these batteries, they arnt the industry norm

Apart from that I was always taught by my dad to play it safe if electrics, turn stuff off at night or when out the house like washing machines etc. put things that might go on fire on something that doesn't burn just in case as I could save you your life or your family's

MikeRJ - 19/7/13 at 07:22 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
One of the new weight saving measures of the Dreamliner is the use of these batteries, they arnt the industry norm


You are confusing this incident with the Lithium Ion problems the same aircraft experienced at the beginning of the year.

The batteries involved in this fire were standard lithium manganese primary batteries used very widely in applications where very long shelf life is required.

richardm6994 - 19/7/13 at 08:04 AM

I'd best go and make sure my lithium grease is in a fireproof cabinet

Not Anumber - 19/7/13 at 11:57 AM

I thought they were in two minds over lithium

britishtrident - 19/7/13 at 06:29 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Not Anumber
I thought they were in two minds over lithium


I'm not depressed about it

More seriously it seems this latest generation of adavanced aircraft (both civil and military) seem to be having more than their share of teething troubles.

sdh2903 - 19/7/13 at 07:29 PM

There are over 6000 of these honeywell ELTs manufactured with the same non rechargeable lithium manganese battery. IF and that is a very big IF these ELT batteries were to blame then Its just an unfortunate coincidence it happened to a 787. If the incident happened to any other type of aircraft it wouldnt have barely made the news.

britishtrident - 19/7/13 at 08:31 PM

A huge amount of 787 manufacture is subcontracted all over the globe, Boeing have stated they have had problems with control of standards.

sdh2903 - 19/7/13 at 08:49 PM

Very true, but once again this is a very simple component (in the grand scheme of the aircraft) of which there have been thousands made. This is the first reported battery incident with one. And honeywell are a pretty reputable company.

iank - 19/7/13 at 09:05 PM

quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
There are over 6000 of these honeywell ELTs manufactured with the same non rechargeable lithium manganese battery. IF and that is a very big IF these ELT batteries were to blame then Its just an unfortunate coincidence it happened to a 787. If the incident happened to any other type of aircraft it wouldnt have barely made the news.


Depends if how/where it's been fitted contributes to a failure. Having less ventilation for example can cause electronics to run a fair few degrees hotter - just needs one capacitor to go frttt and spray electrolyte across the PCB to short out something and cause the batteries to overheat to a dangerous level.