Neville Jones
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| posted on 14/3/12 at 12:13 PM |
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{Never have we had one of these cars that had an AFR on wide open throttle that was more than 13.0}
And from your statement above, you've never tried.
If you understood combustion dynamics, you'd know just why the leaner mixtures are needed.
Just seems odd to me, that you say 13.0 is the max, and another old boy who's been doing it all his life, goes straight for max lean, then
richens if it pings. He doesn't blow engines on his RR, so what are you doing to cause it?
Cheers,
Nev.
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atspeed racing
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| posted on 14/3/12 at 01:03 PM |
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well good for you and good for him, thats why your his customer and not ours.
cant understand why anyone would go straight for lean and go richer. we start rich and go leaner. but ho hum each to their own. not critising him, hes
obviously good at his job, but we do it this way.
not all engines are the same, so to say a given "we wont go leaner than xxAFR" is not entirely true, from a broad view on typical engines
that are likely used on here (this forum), they either dont make power that lean OR wont reliably run that lean. We have around 40 years experience
specifically doing these kinds of engines, in many applications, from short circuit racing to competition and kit cars,with multiple race and
championship wins spanning decades.
we will continue to give the engines what they want, with back to back testing to prove its what it wants. not just a 10 second power pull, but
consistant power, over an entire race - e.g. not power that drops after after 3 laps.
we dont blow engines on our dyno, or on the road, or the track - where did we say this?
i think you are entirely missing the point on the work we do or who we do work for.. there is a reason. These are serious people, not joe bloggs,
these are people like Advanced Engine Research who run protoype race cars at sebring etc. Mountune etc. so it may indicate possibly we know one or two
things, which is why they use us.
I am more satisfied knowing the likes of these people know im doing a job correctly, rather than someone like yourself thinking im doing it
wrong.
again look at what the manufacturers are doing, they seldom get it wrong, extreme example look at honda civic type R, @ WOT this runs mixture down in
the 10s! lean it off and power drops, however - obviously we are talking about typical engines used on this forum - not some of the ultra modern lean
burn engines which are currently being developed which may run WOT @ 14.7 or leaner, but they are of course an entirely different kettle of fish than
say a pinto or a x-flow or a zetec etc.
[Edited on 14/3/12 by atspeed racing]
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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bi22le
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| posted on 14/3/12 at 01:20 PM |
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This is why I like Manufacturers, engine builders and real traders on a forum, especially like this one. It helps stop unjustified bad press and
govern the facts from fiction that this site is amazing at doing.
My hat is off to you AtSpeed and you have nothing but respect from me. The prices you provided were an estimate, worse case, from a 100 character U2U
so I understand your points. If you said £300 and it ended up £600 I would have felt robbed and lied to.
I am green to the kit car world so getting used to the idea that chassis straightness needs to be checked and things just come loose, that does not
happen with your average tin top.
If I find the money then you will be top of my list. I just don’t have the budget of professional race teams nor does my carer and livelihood depend
on it. I just want to check that my wheels are pointing in kind of the right direction and my engine is not self destructing due to me making things
because the wife is out!
Best of luck and let’s keep things pleasant peoples.
Wayne
Track days ARE the best thing since sliced bread, until I get a supercharger that is!
Please read my ring story:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/13/viewthread.php?tid=139152&page=1
Me doing a sub 56sec lap around Brands Indy. I need a geo set up! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHksfvIGB3I
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atspeed racing
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| posted on 14/3/12 at 01:35 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by bi22le
This is why I like Manufacturers, engine builders and real traders on a forum, especially like this one. It helps stop unjustified bad press and
govern the facts from fiction that this site is amazing at doing.
My hat is off to you AtSpeed and you have nothing but respect from me. The prices you provided were an estimate, worse case, from a 100 character U2U
so I understand your points. If you said £300 and it ended up £600 I would have felt robbed and lied to.
I am green to the kit car world so getting used to the idea that chassis straightness needs to be checked and things just come loose, that does not
happen with your average tin top.
If I find the money then you will be top of my list. I just don’t have the budget of professional race teams nor does my carer and livelihood depend
on it. I just want to check that my wheels are pointing in kind of the right direction and my engine is not self destructing due to me making things
because the wife is out!
Best of luck and let’s keep things pleasant peoples.
Wayne
hi wayne
thankyou very much for your reply.
well unfortunately even tin tops arent always straight, but its certainly more likely in a kit car. We will actually be doing a full geo set up on one
of our own cars this weekend.
we appreciate not everyone has the budget of some of our customers, perhaps this is not the ideal forum for us as we are not "locost",
however from a business point of view, its ideal... lots of carbs and ecus that need tuning, and generally the kit car scene is full of honest, nice
people - we arent interested in dealing with anything but that.
feel free to come down and have a chat with us about your suspension set up, we may be able to give you a few pointers in the right direction you
could carry out yourself to make things a bit better - and that costs nothing.
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 14/3/12 at 04:25 PM |
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[we wont go leaner than 13.7 AFR" is not entirely true]
Very Much True!!!Words straight from the father's mouth, as I stood and listened.
Anyone on here been to Atspeed for tuning, and got a graph showing mixture leaner than 13.7? Please put said map here.
Nev.
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jeffw
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| posted on 14/3/12 at 04:56 PM |
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Why would you want to melt your engine by running that lean??? I really don't understand why Nev, without OEM Knock sensors you will grenade
the inside of the motor if anything changes (hi-temp, low fuel pressure etc) Makes no sense to me.
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 14/3/12 at 06:35 PM |
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There are many, many efi engines running with narrow band sensors, which hunt either side of 14.7, and not a knock sensor in sight. Most wide bands
will be mapped by oem's to be well above 14.7 at light loads and cruising speeds.
Stoichiometric fuel ratio is no reason for detonation on its own. If ideal mixture causes detonation, then colder plugs and timing should cure it, all
depending on hot spots in the head itself, which can initiate burn well in advance of spark.
A rich mixture burns less quickly than an ideal, more like a whoomph than a boom, thus produces less power at high revs. All as evidenced on
power/mixture/revs data.
Nev.
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beaver34
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| posted on 14/3/12 at 09:08 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by greenwood03
agree Jeff......Wayne, i would imagine Atspeed have come up with a worse case scenario cost wise....i swear by the 2 Steves at Track n Road and the
first full map i had was about £400, would have been a fair bit less if they hadnt had to tweak so many variables/settings due to the nature of teh
engine. But i'd still expect £300 ish for a map session that is fairly straightforward....
+ 1 for track and road,
i travel from leeds for my engines doing either by steve on engine dyno or on there rollers
top people wouldn't go anywhere else
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