kingster996
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| posted on 25/3/14 at 11:32 AM |
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Zetec vs Pinto (yet again I guess)
Sorry if this has been done to death (and excuse me for originally posting this same question on MK Indy section - I thought I was adding to my
original thread - oops [insert embarrassed smilie here]).
Been thinking about engine choices for my unbuilt MK Indy (non-R) and mulling over my options and trying to work out a sensible cost-benefit
analysis.
I think I am going to pass on the BEC for now - much as I fancy the idea - as it is just too much effort and cost for a pre-IVA build if I am honest
with myself.
So that leaves me with Pinto vs Zetec (I have a type 9 box already).
I reckon I can probably flog the Pinto I got with my unstarted kit and get enough cash to buy a Zetec - so they sort of 'even out' in
terms of initial outlay, but then it gets a little more involved - especially as I have an IVA to consider.
Therefore, if anyone has some experience, I'd like to hear it.
Zetec route:
What do I need to make sure I get with an engine - often see 'bare' engines for sale, but what sensors/manifolds/brackets/wiring/etc are
required?
Is it best to use bike ITB's - or is std injection worth a punt for starters - and do I use std ECU etc or go mega/micro squirt?
Is it worth a shot at getting a pre 95 engine and using the bike carbs I have (which are £800 Mikuni RS38 flatslides) - and what do you do for
ignition?
Pinto route:
Main question, is it worth it when newer engines are easier to upgrade and add more perceived value to the car?
If so, as above regards injection/carburation (Pinto is a 2.0 EFi model with 205 block btw).
Hope you lot don't mind the questions, but it is all new to me is this stuff!
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BangedupTiger
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| posted on 25/3/14 at 12:19 PM |
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Stick the pinto in, get it through iva, enjoy the car, then go bec down the line.
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mookaloid
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| posted on 25/3/14 at 12:22 PM |
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The pinto can be good but it is expensive to make it go well.
The zetec is good 'out of the box'
You have to really want to have a pinto to go down that route IMHO
"That thing you're thinking - it wont be that."
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kingster996
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| posted on 25/3/14 at 12:26 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BangedupTiger
Stick the pinto in, get it through iva, enjoy the car, then go bec down the line.
That option is definitely on the cards - only downside (to me) is the time and effort required to get Pinto in and sorted only to rip it out later.
But I suppose 'tinkering' is all part of the fun 
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kingster996
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| posted on 25/3/14 at 12:35 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mookaloid
The zetec is good 'out of the box'
What is required for an 'out of the box' Zetec?
quote:
You have to really want to have a pinto to go down that route IMHO
...or already have one sat in the garage I guess!
[Edited on 25/3/14 by kingster996]
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Bumble
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| posted on 25/3/14 at 12:46 PM |
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I have an MK with 2.0 Zetec on ITB's running Megasquirt and passed IVA with this set up in 2011. It's a 98 block so had to pass the
latest emissions tests which it did without issue. Plenty of power.
In brief, to go down this route you will need to re-space ITB's or have a manifold made to suit (look up FastDan on here). You will need
M/Squirt or similar ECU, Wideband Lambda and CAT. If choosing the 2.0 engine you will ideally fit a 1.8 flywheel (lighter) and water pump and
preferably the oil pump / filter housing from the 1.8 as well as it gives more clearance around the steering shaft.
BigWasa on here is the fountain of knowledge on all things Zetec and has perfected setup with stock ECU, TB etc and has written up a "How
To" so worth a search.
Hope this helps and good luck.
Matt
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sdh2903
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| posted on 25/3/14 at 12:46 PM |
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If it were me, I'd use the pinto for Iva. The emissions will be much easier to pass. Get the Iva out of the way save up and swap out for a
duratec (rather than zetec as the exhaust exits same side to save on bodywork mods)
You can get a pre aug 95 zetec that will not require a cat but are becoming rarer to find.
Once the car is registered with the pinto your emissions limits will be set, so when you swap to a zetec or duratec then you still won't need a
cat for Mot.
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Paul Turner
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| posted on 25/3/14 at 12:59 PM |
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The problem with fitting a Pinto is to put it simply you will fail the SVA if the engine is knackered and belching smoke. Finding a good Pinto today
when the last was fitted over 20 years ago is difficult. Rebuilding any engine is expensive.
Same applies to Zetecs of course. A pre 95 Zetec is 19 years old now and a good one is not going to be easy to locate. That is why the very good 1994
Zetec 2 litre under my bench is staying there for a little while longer.
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ashg
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| posted on 25/3/14 at 01:03 PM |
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just chuck the zetec in it. if its running correctly it should pass even the stricter emissions very easily it is a modern engine after all.
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
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Paul AS
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| posted on 25/3/14 at 01:12 PM |
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I had a Pinto powered striker back in the day and i really enjoyed it. They are comaratively heavy and need a lot of money and petrol throwing at them
to get going really quickly.
The injection is absolute rubbish and the inlet plenum is as tall as your average 3 bed semi, and generally needs a cut out in the top of the
bonnet.
Twin 45's is the "recommended" route but will set back the best part of £800 new. Second hand will probably need re-jetting which
also equals cost and time.
You could probably drop on a 32/36 DGV with a throttle linkage and manifold for under £100, and again with an air filter, you will probably be cutting
a hole in the top of the bonnet. This carb is actually very good, and on a standard engine, the performance would be close to that of twin
DCOE's.
The Pinto sump, unmodified is very low!! Modifying it will set you back about £100, unless you are a good welder and know how to do it, and you can
then get problems with oil pick up, or the lack of it, if is not correctly baffled or the pick up pipe is too short. the modified one are very flat
bottomed with no natural well for the oil to fall into on return. I don't know about the sump clearance fitted into an Indy, but I would measure
very carefully.
You will need different engine mounts for most engines that you fit, and a fair bit of the engine loom and coolant pipe work will be different.
Fuel supply and return ia not fitted with a carb set up and a different pump will be needed to convert later, with the relevant extra pipework
So the initial costs with your Pinto also exist, and would need to be factored into any later conversion.
My personal preference would be to fit the engine you think you want, and plan to stick with that installation. Initial cost saving will generally
become a false economy when you factor in all the other things you have to change.
The pinto is great. Simple to install and work on. Saves the cost of an ECU. Weighs lots. Is different. Won't win any races (unless you modify
it). Be less fuel efficient due to the lack of EFI and will cost more than you think to swap it later.
Unless you like the challenge and cost of converting later, do it right first time, even if the extra initial cost delays the build.
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Barkalarr
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| posted on 25/3/14 at 02:05 PM |
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+1 for the Zetec.
I'm almost at the end of my "Pinto to Zetec swap" which has pretty easy. I've also taken the time to completely rebuild the
car but that's another story. I've gone for stock standard zetec ECU.
Main reason for the upgrade:
1. Car will be more desirable if I ever decide to sell
2. I have loads of scope for more power.
3. Pinto + bike carbs would do about 9 mpg (or at least it felt like it... every trip to the shops was £20! ) Zetec should return about 40 mpg (ish)
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mookaloid
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| posted on 25/3/14 at 02:08 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by kingster996
quote:
Originally posted by mookaloid
You have to really want to have a pinto to go down that route IMHO
...or already have one sat in the garage I guess!
even if you already have one, unless you are passionate about having a pinto, you will better off with a more modern engine.
If money isn't a problem then duratec is the way forward otherwise zetec will probably be cheaper than the pinto to install.
I can't see any point in sticking the pinto in then converting afterwards - it means new exhaust, bonnet, engine mounts?wiring, plumbing etc.
etc.
"That thing you're thinking - it wont be that."
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Paul Turner
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| posted on 25/3/14 at 02:20 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Barkalarr
Zetec should return about 40 mpg (ish)
Don't delude yourself.
My old X-Flow on 45's with 3D ignition did about 23 mpg.
Silvertop 2 litre on 45's from X-flow did about 25 mpg.
Blacktop on throttle bodies, mapped and running perfectly has done 31 mpg for the 5 years its been in, logged every gallon.
I don't thrash it but I don't drive like a vicar, I built the car to enjoy. To expect 40 mpg from a car with the aerodynamics of a brick
and an appetite to overtake most other road users is unrealistic.
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DavidW
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| posted on 25/3/14 at 02:34 PM |
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Have to agree with the above and don't think the Pinto makes sense now.
Although I once started off with a Pinto, I swapped mid build and IVAd with a pre 95 zetec on bike carbs with megajolt. It was cheap and runs very
well.
I don't think it costs much more than a basic Pinto set up but gives you a lot more for your money.
If I started now I'd probably go with injection as I think it may be less of a faff to get set up properly nowadays.
David.
P.S. Not sure what mpg is does normally but do know it did about 14 mpg on track at the weekend which I though was pretty good.
[Edited on 25/3/14 by DavidW]
[Edited on 25/3/14 by DavidW]
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loggyboy
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| posted on 25/3/14 at 02:44 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner
Don't delude yourself.
Blacktop on throttle bodies, mapped and running perfectly has done 31 mpg for the 5 years its been in, logged every gallon.
I think the key there is the TBs, they are designed for performance not economy. Stick a zetec on standard management in 7 and I would expect easy
40s at a sensible speed, possibly more.
Mistral Motorsport
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davidimurray
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| posted on 25/3/14 at 03:15 PM |
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I think there is two sides to the coin, firstly what you want now and want you want later.
I went the Pinto route as I used a single donor. This meant I could go for an age related plate and as my car was 87 it means I'm pre cat on
2.5%co - the good thing is this means that whatever engine I drop in, in future I will be on those emmissions with no need for a CAT. Mine is only an
1800 pinto but as I've never owned anything this focused and rear wheel drive I find it a good but still quick introduction to this type of car
without being petrified everytime I touch the throttle. I do have a plan to go Duratec in the future. I am running ZX6r carbs and a megajolt - never
been on a rolling road and setup by myself and I get 25-30mpg when pushing and upto 35mpg when cruising.
On the flip side, there is no doubting that the Zetec is a better engine, but then you need to consider emmissions and CATs for IVA. You may alsow
want to consider what reg you are going for - Q or age related?
Depends on how you view your car - mine is a long term project, phase 1 build and IVA, phase 2 enjoy, phase 3 upgrade, repeat ....
[Edited on 25/3/14 by davidimurray]
Gallery 1 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.116893465324.130778.601005324
Gallery 2 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.245243755324.181913.601005324&l=a9831a9319
Gallery 3 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.440671625324.232627.601005324&l=3f0d42c523
Gallery 4 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.490098255324.297598.601005324&l=efb083b7df
Gallery 5 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150244028550325.366987.601005324&l=583fd5cd3a
Gallery 6 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150550640070325.430417.601005324&type=3&l=fe779b358c
Duratec Engine Swap https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152527759580325.1073741828.601005324&type=1&l=40aae5e72f " target="_blank"> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152527759580325.1073741828.601005324&type=1&l=40aae5e72f
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Paul Turner
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| posted on 25/3/14 at 03:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
I think the key there is the TBs, they are designed for performance not economy. Stick a zetec on standard management in 7 and I would expect easy
40s at a sensible speed, possibly more.
Should not make much difference providing both are correctly set up. Any car needs a certain amount of power to maintain a certain speed and to
produce that power you need a certain amount of air and fuel. Providing everything's set up correctly single TB or multiple should make little
difference.
That is why in many cases people with a larger engined variant of a certain car get virtually the same mpg in the real world as the person who bought
the paupers version.
Of course everything changes if you use the extra performance available and that also applies to a seven on TB's.
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kingster996
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| posted on 25/3/14 at 03:42 PM |
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quote:
there is no doubting that the Zetec is a better engine, but then you need to consider emmissions and CATs for IVA. You may also want to
consider what reg you are going for - Q or age related?
I will probably go for age related with the E reg donor bits - and will have enough bits (so I understand) even if I use a Zetec, as I will still have
the original box, diff, uprights, driveshafts etc.
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ali f27
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| posted on 25/3/14 at 03:50 PM |
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I think its all about how quick you want it to be in the long run have you had a go in lots of differnt 7s i built mine with a pinto 100 some bhp
loved it could kick its arse all day have long runs out in it got passed a lot on trackday couldnt keep up on sprints so decided another 150 horses
requierd and went down duratec route can play with anything now but maby not as nicer car for a ride out you have to watch it a lot more.
If you want to go touring and long trips etc the zetec will be fine if you want to trackday race or just play with your mate stick the pinto to get
iva then go duratec.
PS most of my cost of the duratec change was up grading to dta fuel injection new tank new fuel lines if i could go back i would have future proofed
my original build
Anyway i would enjoy my car with any engine
Good luck Ali
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kingster996
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| posted on 25/3/14 at 04:24 PM |
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Thanks Ali - only had a go in a Caterham (sigma engined) so far - loved it.
My aim is for a mix of Sunday blasts (with or without mates), sunny runs with the missus and the odd track day. Long trips not really planned, but
wouldn't be out of the question as I have a few mates who said "you must do Stelvio Pass with us when it's built!" - so you
never know - although no intention of fitting any wet gear.
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snapper
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| posted on 25/3/14 at 04:45 PM |
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The older Pinto will get easier emissions target at IVA after that any engine you fit will easily pass MOT
Zetec needs management and you need to pay twice as much for cam upgrade
I can get 130bhp out of a Pinto with ease, 150 with a little more work
Zetec will give 130 to 145 then costs mount
If it were me I would look at Pinto now and Duratec later, exhaust is on the same side
I eat to survive
I drink to forget
I breath to pi55 my ex wife off (and now my ex partner)
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BangedupTiger
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| posted on 25/3/14 at 04:45 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by kingster996
quote:
Originally posted by BangedupTiger
Stick the pinto in, get it through iva, enjoy the car, then go bec down the line.
That option is definitely on the cards - only downside (to me) is the time and effort required to get Pinto in and sorted only to rip it out later.
But I suppose 'tinkering' is all part of the fun
You'll only end up pulling the zetec out at a later date anyway, zetec offered no gain over pinto IMO. Needless to say my pinto is coming out.
In favour of a lightweight gm turbo engine, even the duratec doesn't cut it imo.
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kingster996
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| posted on 25/3/14 at 05:32 PM |
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ALthough I'd rather have a newer motor, there are a few things it seems the Pinto has going for it - in may case anyway - so please feel free to
shoot holes in the following:
- I already have the engine, which is from a car that did 65k miles.
- I already have a suitable exhaust system for it - albeit a bit untidy, it would probably do the job for IVA
- I already have a bonnet with a hole cut out for a Weber 32/36 carb - no carb tho as car was efi
- Assuming it is smoke-free - then IVA should be easier to pass and then good for future MOT's
I believe the engine will be OK, based on the fact that the previous owner bought a running Sierra and went to the trouble to strip it all down
for his kit (before he lost interest). However, I have not had it running, so could end up with a lemon that needs work/swapping anyway!
Decisions, decisions!
Anyway - bought a 2nd hand Clarke MIG 151EN today, so plan is to learn how to weld and make up some engine mounts soon
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CosKev3
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| posted on 25/3/14 at 06:35 PM |
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If you know anyone with a decent bore scope I would be checking out the bores in the Pinto before committing to using it,if its been sat anywhere
moisture could have got inside it could need a re-build.
Whats the score with pre '95 Zetecs passing without a cat out of interest?
I thought it was late '92 that the full cat emissions test came in to effect?
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kingster996
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| posted on 25/3/14 at 07:01 PM |
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Afaik pre aug 95 no cat. Post aug 95 cat.
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