Badger_McLetcher
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| posted on 3/9/14 at 10:17 PM |
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M52 vs AJ-30
I am rapidly approaching the point of no return regarding my engine choice, and I have just enough time for one last crisis of faith!
So far for my Haynes build I have planned to use the M52b28 engine currently occupying space on my garage floor. This produces under 200bhp as
standard, and weighs in at about 180kg with the transmission. Tuning wise I am looking at 250bhp maximum, with tuning parts that are hard to get hold
of.
The alternative option is to abandon the M52 and go for the Jaguar AJ-30 engine, which produces 240bhp from the box (ostensibly). Not sure about
weight but the gear ratios appear to be very similar to those of the M52 gearbox. Tuning wise apparently 300bhp is relatively doable, and about as far
as I want to go at this point.
From my point of view a big advantage of the AJ-30 is that it sounds nice, whereas I've yet to find a good sounding M52.
So what do you guys think? Stick with what I've got or change direction?
If disfunction is a function, then I must be some kind of genius.
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drt
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| posted on 3/9/14 at 10:30 PM |
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I would go for the straight6, for packaging and I would think that it would be lighter.
-> just judging on the amount of parts of I6 vs V6 
The Vanos system will give it low down torque, but is complex.
just you wait until you get a custom (locost) exhaust on that I6, it will sound awesome
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Nickp
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| posted on 4/9/14 at 06:18 AM |
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I don't think power is an issue at all. The M52B28 is only sub 200bhp as it's restricted from the factory. The M50 manifold, ECU remap and
decent exhaust should see an easy 230bhp. Either way it'll be more than enough in a Haynes, especially on the road!!  The next level of tuning
may become more difficult / expensive, but will you need it? If required I'm thinking forged rods, gas flowed head and M3 or similar cams. But
tbh it'll probably be easier / cheaper to go to a full M3 lump at that point.
As above, I reckon the M52 will sound awesome into a single can 
I can't see weights been much different but the V6 should be shorter which may help.
[Edited on 4/9/14 by Nickp]
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big_wasa
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| posted on 4/9/14 at 07:19 AM |
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I would be going v6.
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Nickp
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| posted on 4/9/14 at 07:29 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by big_wasa
I would be going v6.
I think he might be after reasons (not statements)
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rodgling
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| posted on 4/9/14 at 07:39 AM |
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M52 does indeed sound great through a decat exhaust, and it is plenty of power to start with. Plus easy upgrade path to M3 (320 bhp) then
turbo'd M3 (4-500 bhp if you are mental) in the future. It's tall and long so tricky to fit though. Lightweight gearbox, diff is heavy but
you don't have to use the BMW diff I guess.
Remember that a v6 will carry a weight (and cost) penalty in terms of needing two exhausts.
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Ugg10
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| posted on 4/9/14 at 08:13 AM |
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Bit of inspiration ?
http://www.reallyquick.co.uk/spec.htm
Jag V6 has variable valve timing so unless you are going to use the stock ECU then you will either need a top end ECU that can to PWM control, the
trigger wheels VCT box (not sure they have a map for this engine though) or go for the off/on/off method which works well with the ST170 and 1.7 Puma.
There is also some good info on this engine in the link below - in a Lotus Esprit - using a mondeo inlet manifold to keep the engine hieight down.
http://www.thelotusforums.com/forums/topic/8126-30-v6-conversion/
---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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Irony
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| posted on 4/9/14 at 08:14 AM |
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Running a V8 I can certainly inform you that there is a cost penalty when having two exhausts. 
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 4/9/14 at 08:29 AM |
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I would go for the Beemer, not the most powerful engine out the box but very strong and simple.
The M50 manifold mod does help, but not much, the biggest step forward is bin the factory ECU and fit MS.
Next biggest step is a decent exhaust manifold, the factory one is rubbish.
We have tuned a couple in the past, will pull from very low rpm, really smooth engines.
Regarding the jag, we have dyno'd afew jags (old ones) and found jaguar lie about power output, the Beemer will produce as stated or slightly
more.
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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alfablack
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| posted on 4/9/14 at 10:28 AM |
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I would go ajv6 bottom end is good . noble only use rods and lower compresion pistons obviously blown but 450 hp
the vvt on the jag can be driven with the outputs on most mid priced ecu's but its not a big job to run standard ecu.
on throttle bodies no engine tune and programmable ecu a g20 is running 275hp 2 years on and it was still racing
and it is a nice small compact unit
no brainer and its a six they all sound good
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Nickp
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| posted on 4/9/14 at 12:48 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
The M50 manifold mod does help, but not much, the biggest step forward is bin the factory ECU and fit MS.
I'm surprised that you say the M50 manifold doesn't help much. Most reckon you can add 25bhp, possibly more, for very little outlay.
I'm sure MS or similar will give good gains but surely only if used in conjunction with the M50 manifold or ITBs?
I'm about to bolt an M50 manifold onto my donor and have a 'remapped' std ECU ready to go on. It's alleged to give 230bhp, but
we'll have to see I guess. I got the ECU more for the EWS/ABS delete but a decent power increase would be nice too
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BaileyPerformance
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| posted on 4/9/14 at 01:20 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Nickp
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
The M50 manifold mod does help, but not much, the biggest step forward is bin the factory ECU and fit MS.
I'm surprised that you say the M50 manifold doesn't help much. Most reckon you can add 25bhp, possibly more, for very little outlay.
I'm sure MS or similar will give good gains but surely only if used in conjunction with the M50 manifold or ITBs?
I'm about to bolt an M50 manifold onto my donor and have a 'remapped' std ECU ready to go on. It's alleged to give 230bhp, but
we'll have to see I guess. I got the ECU more for the EWS/ABS delete but a decent power increase would be nice too
The stock engine is restricted by it both inlet and exhaust manifolds and the air flow meter, you need to address all three problems to get a worth
while increase in power.
We have fitted M5 ITBs to a stock engine (with conversion plate), with stock exhaust, and gained 10BHP. We didn't try i but i recon another 5BHP
would have been released with a decent exhaust manifold and system.
We have turbocharged these engines too, with disappointing results regarding BHP - the cars do go very well but make the same sort of power as a turbo
zetec. The turbo car we did recently was fitted with a Piper 285 - that engine made a load of power and was mental in a drift car!
So, the engine will not breathe even with a turbo unless the cams are changed.
If ITBs don't gain much then the M50 manifold is unlikely to be better.
We have dyno'd two "chipped / re-flashed" BMWs in the past, very poor power curve with the fuelling all over the place - worse than
the stock ECU.
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Nickp
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| posted on 4/9/14 at 01:45 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
quote:
Originally posted by Nickp
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
The M50 manifold mod does help, but not much, the biggest step forward is bin the factory ECU and fit MS.
I'm surprised that you say the M50 manifold doesn't help much. Most reckon you can add 25bhp, possibly more, for very little outlay.
I'm sure MS or similar will give good gains but surely only if used in conjunction with the M50 manifold or ITBs?
I'm about to bolt an M50 manifold onto my donor and have a 'remapped' std ECU ready to go on. It's alleged to give 230bhp, but
we'll have to see I guess. I got the ECU more for the EWS/ABS delete but a decent power increase would be nice too
The stock engine is restricted by it both inlet and exhaust manifolds and the air flow meter, you need to address all three problems to get a worth
while increase in power.
We have fitted M5 ITBs to a stock engine (with conversion plate), with stock exhaust, and gained 10BHP. We didn't try i but i recon another 5BHP
would have been released with a decent exhaust manifold and system.
We have turbocharged these engines too, with disappointing results regarding BHP - the cars do go very well but make the same sort of power as a turbo
zetec. The turbo car we did recently was fitted with a Piper 285 - that engine made a load of power and was mental in a drift car!
So, the engine will not breathe even with a turbo unless the cams are changed.
If ITBs don't gain much then the M50 manifold is unlikely to be better.
We have dyno'd two "chipped / re-flashed" BMWs in the past, very poor power curve with the fuelling all over the place - worse than
the stock ECU.
Interesting. Seems that BMW went to a lot of trouble to fit the 'skinny runner' inlet manifold and 'choked' the 2.8 down to
the level of the previous 2.5. But as you say all issues need to be addressed to get the most benefit.
A mate did nothing more than fit an M50 manifold to a stripped out 328i saloon and managed a 14.0s 1/4 at Santa Pod, which seemed pretty sprightly.
Apologies to the OP, we seem to be going off track slightly.
BTW, I like the sound of the turbo'd drifter, what sort of power did that make and what turbo?
[Edited on 4/9/14 by Nickp]
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ettore bugatti
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| posted on 4/9/14 at 07:42 PM |
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Nothing wrong with the sound of a straight six.
My impression is that technically more support is available for the BMW engine than the Jag V6.
Cost wise, a S50/52 M3 engine would be cheaper than tuning the AJ v6 to 300hp.
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DanP
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| posted on 4/9/14 at 09:46 PM |
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Daft question but why not just go straight for the 3.0 or 3.2 m3 motor, amazing engine and plenty around and plenty of parts to maintain or upgrade.
I know the manifold swap is meant to add a lot but by the time you tune up a 2.8 to go further you could have bought the S50/52 engine!
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Nickp
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| posted on 4/9/14 at 09:58 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DanP
Daft question but why not just go straight for the 3.0 or 3.2 m3 motor, amazing engine and plenty around and plenty of parts to maintain or upgrade.
I know the manifold swap is meant to add a lot but by the time you tune up a 2.8 to go further you could have bought the S50/52 engine!
The M3 lump. in any form, is a fair bit more dosh. And 300bhp+ may scare some folk
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Badger_McLetcher
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| posted on 4/9/14 at 10:13 PM |
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Thanks for all the replies guys, there's a fair bit of interesting information especially regarding tuning the M52.
I wasn't really looking at the S50 engine as I thought they'd be a fair bit heavier - about 30kg over the M52 it turns out. They are,
however, very expensive from a quick ebay search. I'd imaging the AJ-30 would give much better bang for the buck than an M3 engine.
I guess I'm not overly worried about the total power, it's more being able to research and upgrade the engine as a project (if that makes
any sense!). So I'd be quite happy starting off with a 50hp engine if I could do some upgrades and get 200hp (exaggerated example obviously!).
I'm just weird like that
Also the sound, and as I said I'm not convinced on the M52 engine noise. Superficial I know, but I don't want to make a choice now
I'll regret when I'm going through tunnels later 
If disfunction is a function, then I must be some kind of genius.
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ettore bugatti
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| posted on 6/9/14 at 11:50 PM |
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I'm not sure about AJ30 being a better bang for the buck than a S52.
The S52 comes with throttle bodies for 'free' and to get an AJ to perform like a S52 you probably looking at some headwork, cams, itbs and
a standalone ECU.
Soundwise look for some vids on youtube with M52 with exhaust systems (Supersprint, Eissenmann, Remus) and decide if that could work for you.
Maybe, the v6 gearbox combo from a Nissan 350Z might have dropped enough in price to steal them from evilbay?
However the best sound system for in the tunnel would be an Alfa-Romeo v6 (Busso)
http://youtu.be/2lWvcQrr6sA
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Badger_McLetcher
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| posted on 7/9/14 at 12:29 PM |
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It's not that I don't like the sound of a straight 6, it's just that I guess a V6 has a bit more warble to it (not sure if
that's the right word!). Besides, getting an S52 would be difficult, as they're only available in the states I have yet to find an
reasonable M3 engine for less than a couple of grand, and that's without ECU. The AJ-30 I can get with the gearbox for a few hundred, then
ITB's would be something I'd probably try to do myself. As I said above, the overall performance is not something I'm too worried
about, more the return for investment! If I want all out power I'd go the forced induction route
Alfa V6 would be an awesome project, but I can't be faffed with adapter plates etc. - otherwise I'd just use the 1UZ-FE V8 I've got
loitering around The VQ35DE is an interesting engine, but again pretty damned expensive at this point with the gearbox.
After all this I am still undecided - I shall ponder the question more as I try to plumb my brakes in!
If disfunction is a function, then I must be some kind of genius.
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ettore bugatti
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| posted on 7/9/14 at 07:41 PM |
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I meant S50 or S54
Although, Alpina did put in some of their cars (the 3.3 liters) a engine similar to the US S52.
I do see your point a well tuned V6 sounds a little more exotic than a straight six which tends to sound more 'perfect' turbine like.
Investment wise, it is the cheapest to get the engine with the desired power from factory.
Tuning is always (needs to be) done with man's math logic. How it works when you start comparing on engine sounds I do not know. Everything
sounds allright with an open exhaust (or am I too young?)
In the latest PPC there is an article of an 1UZ-Fe being matched to a Getrag 260 gearbox on a shoestring budget, just a thought.
Ultimate straight six sound here:
http://youtu.be/bwyh24AUTds
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DanP
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| posted on 7/9/14 at 08:24 PM |
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S50 is the 3.0 e36 m3 engine, single vanos (vvt) 286bhp, very solid engine
S52 is the 3.2 e36 m3 evo engine, dual vanos (inlet and exhaust), 321bhp, vanos unit can get noisy and fail but parts easy to get
S54 is the 3.2 e46 m3 engine, dual vanos, 343bhp, solid engine.
Stay away from the US e36 m3 engines, they were quite different and much lower power.
I totally agree with the want of a lovely sound of a Vee engine, but a BMW ///M straight six is a serious engine and sounds amazing.
You can pick up an e36 m3 engine and box for 2000, a lot but you will struggle to get that sort of power for less out of anything else.
You gotta go with your heart at the end of the day though, it's your car!
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rodgling
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| posted on 8/9/14 at 09:21 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DanP
S50 is the 3.0 e36 m3 engine, single vanos (vvt) 286bhp, very solid engine
S52 is the 3.2 e36 m3 evo engine, dual vanos (inlet and exhaust), 321bhp, vanos unit can get noisy and fail but parts easy to get
S54 is the 3.2 e46 m3 engine, dual vanos, 343bhp, solid engine.
No, S50B30 is E36 3.0 M3; S50B32 is E36 3.2 M3; S52 is US version (more like a 240 bhp bored out M50 325 with hotter cams I believe); S54 is E46 (much
more complex drive-by-wire electronics so would recommend sticking to E36).
I paid £1500 for my S50B32 a couple of years ago, surprised if they they've gone up to £2k since then but maybe they have?
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DanP
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| posted on 8/9/14 at 12:39 PM |
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I think the price varies depending on the weather - wet weather = lots of m3's being broken!
My brother broke his 3.2 and got 1600, but I though 2k was more normal, I guess not.
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Volvorsport
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| posted on 8/9/14 at 02:39 PM |
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Whiteblock Volvo 3 litre straight six , 204hp. They do come with manual boxes but you have to look.
they don't lean over as much as bmw either
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
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Badger_McLetcher
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| posted on 19/9/14 at 06:54 PM |
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Well the die is cast!
 
Jaaaaaaaag
If disfunction is a function, then I must be some kind of genius.
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