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4x4 Locost/haynes

londonsean69 - 24/11/08 at 11:30 AM

So, who's done it? A haynes roadster/locost based on a sierra 4x4?

Have done a quick search of the forums and it seems a couple have.

Reason I ask is that I have noticed the price of 4x4 sierras, and it's a very attractive price. Then there is the even more tempting option of a cossie 4x4.

I can't imagine it being too much more hassle, just have to make sure the front drive shafts clear any chassis tubes.

And before people start asking why? My answer is why not?

4wd, lightweight and a stupidly powerful turbo'd motor is why, actually

Any thoughts?

Sean

Guinness - 24/11/08 at 11:36 AM

I haven't seen a 4x4 Haynes before, but I do have a mate with a 4x4 Dax Rush with a Cossie engine. It's very rapid! And noisy!

He has a fair bit of trouble with the gearboxes, as he's running 300 horses through standard 4x4 boxes, so he treats them as a "consumable item".

Mike

mookaloid - 24/11/08 at 11:38 AM

Dax do a kit - called the Rush quadra I think, so It is definitely possible.

I have seen a cossie 4x4 rush quadra and it was just awesome.

Go for it

nick205 - 24/11/08 at 11:50 AM

There was someone on here building a V6 4x4 Locost - can't remember who though.

If your set on it then it's definately possible, but with a weight penalty.

Guinness - 24/11/08 at 11:54 AM

quote:
Originally posted by nick205
There was someone on here building a V6 4x4 Locost - can't remember who though.

If your set on it then it's definately possible, but with a weight penalty.

Liam is your man for 4x4 and V6 combo.

Mike

londonsean69 - 24/11/08 at 11:56 AM

Well, most things are possible - but usually at some sort of cost (time/money/effort etc.)

I like the idea of it, and would probably just buy a complete cossie as a donor, hence everything will be rated for the (standard) power.

I have thought about the weight penalty. I was originally leaning towards using a hedgeabuser lump (hayabusa), but I would still need a donor sierra, or have to source a lot of parts. For the same money as a decent busa lump with all the bits, I could get a functional cossie, possibly an mot failure.

It would save a lot of hassle, buying a complete, running donor, and the only real difference I can see between an RWD and 4x4 version would be the front diff and shafts.

Still at the planning stage you see, but will be ordering a big pile of steel in the next couple of weeks, to keep me busy over christmas

Cheers

Sean

chrisg - 24/11/08 at 12:11 PM

One possible problem is that the transfer box on the gearbox protrudes in to the drivers footwell, but it must be "doable"

Cheers

Chris

hellbent345 - 24/11/08 at 01:27 PM

yup, make sure you design from the start tho as the 4x4 box sticks out into the drivers compartment, maybe widen the chassis and move the engine over a bit? the ford engine is actually fairly tall even without the plenum so basically, a lot of design work to change it to fit, even to shoehorn it in, but it IS doable if you are prepared to change a lot of bits and not straight from the haynes book! but id love to see it as i also have an xr4x4i! im definately keeping the box, if you manage to get it in id like to hear from u!
thanks alan

James - 24/11/08 at 02:22 PM

Don't forget the drive shafts pass through the sump of the engine so this'll need welding up.

HTH,
James

londonsean69 - 24/11/08 at 03:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by James
Don't forget the drive shafts pass through the sump of the engine so this'll need welding up.

TBH I've not actually had a proper look at one yet.

Surely though, if I was still using the original engine and driveshafts, they would stay as they were originally??

Sean

adithorp - 24/11/08 at 05:10 PM

To use it as is then you'd have to mount the engine too far forward.

adrian

ps get a ride in a BEC before you go down this route...runs and hides!

adrian

yellow melos - 24/11/08 at 05:36 PM

Duncan Cowper used to have a Rush Qudra, was a mental machine as it was highly tuned as well, but he has a Busa turbo Rush now and it would run rings around the cossie version.

And he maanged to beat the stigs time on the zonda round the top gear track.

You wont get the rear end stepping out but you will get all 4 wheels sliding... but then just point the wheels in the direction you wont to go and boot it...

you would probably need to widen the chassis due to the fron prop and prop box.

has been done on a Dutton Melos ... suprisingly !!!

But i suspect you would be able to abuse it more and get away with it, BEC's can be problematic... ( like the don't like going backwards after a spin, tends to break them if the clutch is not in. )

Hope i have not upsett any BEC users !!!

mcerd1 - 24/11/08 at 06:51 PM

quote:
Originally posted by James
Don't forget the drive shafts pass through the sump of the engine so this'll need welding up.

HTH,
James

does it ?
I thought the driveshaft ran in a sort of pipe through the sump so there arn't any seals (I'd have to check to be sure though)

If you buy a dax rush quadra they sell you a 2 part front prop to move the diff and modify your front driveshafts too
there are a few other mods to the chassis to fit it all in and give the mounting points but the back end stays the same

I was going to build my dax with 4x4 and a 2.9 V6 (from my XR4x4i donor that I'm not using now - if someone makes the right offer I might sell it

)
but when I went down to the factory they talked me into a 2wd (as it was lighter, cheaper and easier) and tried talking me into a BEC - but I wasn't having that

[Edited on 24/11/08 by mcerd1]

[Edited on 24/11/08 by mcerd1]

Liam - 24/11/08 at 10:02 PM

Welcome Sean!

Have a look in my photo archive for an idea of how the bits go together. I also have some build pics from a V8 Dax Rush Quadra build that was my inspiration, if you want to have a look at those.

You definately have to move the front axle forwards unless you want the engine where the nosecone should be. That means an extended front prop that, if properly engineered, needs to be two-piece with a sliding joint.

The intermediate driveshaft doesn't share oil with the sump, but when you remove the front diff there is still a gaping hole in the sump which you'll need to plug if you're keeping the engine (or just get a 2WD sump).

Fitting a steering column round the front diff is fun too. Further details on mine or Dax's solutions, or anything else you want to know, just ask.

Cheers,

Liam

Micael - 24/11/08 at 11:10 PM

I'm thinking of using a Zetec or a duratec engine and a Sierra 4x4 as a donor.

What do you guys think about that?

londonsean69 - 25/11/08 at 08:32 AM

Liam, thanks for the reply.

Had a look at the pics and none of it looks insurmountable.

So moving the front diff forwards means the actual motor can stay in a fairly 'normal' position?

I see what you mean about the steering column! Looks like your solution worked well though.

It's a very interesting idea for a project for me, although over christmas I will probably just get cracking on suspension parts.
I don't want to crack on with the chassis until I have an engine, box and diffs to work with.

I'm sure I will have more questions soon

Thanks

Sean

Liam - 25/11/08 at 09:15 PM

quote:
Originally posted by londonsean69
Liam, thanks for the reply.

Had a look at the pics and none of it looks insurmountable.

So moving the front diff forwards means the actual motor can stay in a fairly 'normal' position?

Yeah pretty much. I put mine as far back as possible to give me plenty of room infront for the front axle and the inboard suspension I wanted to do. Puts the gear stick in the right position without an extension and puts the front prop output bulge out of the way under your knee!

quote:
I see what you mean about the steering column! Looks like your solution worked well though.

It's a very interesting idea for a project for me, although over christmas I will probably just get cracking on suspension parts.
I don't want to crack on with the chassis until I have an engine, box and diffs to work with.

I'm sure I will have more questions soon

Thanks

Sean

You need to be aware of some details before just 'cracking on with suspension'. 4x4 front uprights are very different to 2WD ones. They require a bigger diameter 'mushroom' insert (MK custom made me a pair) and a pinch bolt lower bj rather than the taper maxi one 2WD locosters use. Hard to source a suitable load-bearing joint to fit this if you want to keep a standard shock arrangement which loads the bottom bj. Dax's solution is a custom made joint for them (you can buy but pricey), my solution was to go rocking-arm inboard which makes the top joint the loaded one. Then I could use a standard non-load-bearing bottom joint (fiesta I think).

If you're using a cossie donor, the front uprights are different again to XR4x4 stuff - the top strut mount is further inwards (so the cossie could run wider wheels without hitting the struts). This means your top wishbone has to be shorter.

I think rear is all the same regardless of whether its 2WD, XR4x4 or cossie 4x4, so you could probably crack on with that, but you really need to think about the front beforehand!

Ping me a U2U with an email address and I'll send you my zip of Dax rush quadra build pics if ya like. Or continue asking away!

Liam

londonsean69 - 26/11/08 at 09:11 AM

Liam, once again, many thanks, you have U2U.

After discussions in the pub last night, the thought now is to start with a 'normal' 4x4 (XR 4x4), although the motor might be a bit of a squeeze.

Once everything is in, and working, then I can have a think about getting a cosworth lump in there.

I'll have to get hold of the workshop manuals for all of the above and have a real good look, then actually lay my hands on some parts.

Sean

Liam - 26/11/08 at 12:35 PM

Hi

I'd reccommend picking up a 2 litre dohc XR4x4 as your donor. As well as being the only 4x4 which has 3.92 diffs as opposed to 3.62s (acceleration!), it has a 2-litre cossie gearbox and the heavy duty cossie tubular front prop (V6 XRs have a weedy solid bar front prop with teeny little ujs).

The 2 litre dohc isn't an amazing engine to start with, but it's a better stand-in for a cossie turbo lump than the V6. Then when you later want to change to the cossie it's only a matter of sourcing the motor and swapping. Then you never have to bother fitting the boat anchor cologne in there in the first place and can design for a 4-pot install from the word go. Just a thought. Cheap way to get all the bits you need save the proper engine.

The V6 sierra Haynes manual is good for pics of the 4x4 bits, and i have the 4x4 workshop manual which i could photocopy for you. Neither of these cover the 2-litre, but it's all pretty much the same. No substitute for getting you hands on the bits though - so get yourself a sierra!

I'll send you the dax pics when I'm home as they show their approach, which differs quite a lot from mine on the front axle.

Good luck. Did i mention - 4WD RRUUUULLLEEZZZZZZZZ

londonsean69 - 26/11/08 at 01:00 PM

Liam

I had actually come to the conclusion of starting with the 4 pot lump, then its a straight(ish) swap for the cossie.

When I get hold of a donor I will also pick up a copy of the relevant haynes (I also have a download of the entire 1000 page workshop manual for the cossie)

It seems as well that a lot of other cossie parts will bolt on fairly easily, or are the same, discs, calipers etc.

Ho hum, now to start tracking down a 2.0l XR 4x4

Sean

PS the lower ball joint you mention, in your pic (front suspension 2) - where did you get it??

Meeerrrk - 26/11/08 at 06:09 PM

what about that twin engine 4wd one which tiff needel drove? was it a tiger?!

seventhheaven - 18/10/11 at 09:10 PM

If it's of any interest, I'm giving the 4x4 route a go.
I've had a few hiccups to say the least and space is getting extremely tight.
That might be because I've gone for inboard suspension and a Rover V8.

So far there hasn't been anything that can't be solved.

check out Liams and my effort http://www.super7thheaven.co.uk/blog/honda-v6-4wd-locost-a40.html

Check the blog for regular updates.