Board logo

Megasquirt - no capacity to cope, anybody recommend a rolling road company or fancy acting as a consultant?
Steve Lovelock - 6/6/10 at 02:37 PM

Well I've had enough, admitted defeat and now require help. I am running a Vauxhall C20XE (redtop) with GSXR TBs and a megasquirt and spark that I built three years ago. It works ok, I've done 2500 miles on it, but not really well. I have shocking fuel consumption and a bad backfire on over run. However, I lost my hard drive and when I re-installed Megatune I got a newer version which wont work so I have to un-install the whole lot and start again. Frankly, I can't be bothered, I found the damn thing so complicated and there is so much of it that I don't want to spend the time on it. I am conscious that I never got the thing sorted out in the first place, for example the lambda sensor reading was always wildly varying and I have no idea why. So what I want to do is get help. I contacted Atspeed who will look at it but said it could take up to 10 hours and at £80 / hour I am a little worried to do that. So, I'd like recommendations of professional companies that could do it and ideally located within a few hours drive of north London. Alternatively, are there any knowledgable people out there who would be able to look at it and have a proper go and getting over my attempts for a fee?


RichardK - 6/6/10 at 02:44 PM

Yeh, I've heard that with megasquirt you've got to use the software that first came (got setup) with the hardware to get any sort of reliability, I've also heard that rolling roads do like to use the end users laptops for just this reason.

Can you not find out the version you had, do you still have the hard drive that could be put into a caddy and the version of megatune copied off?

Cheers

Rich


paulf - 6/6/10 at 02:47 PM

Is it fitted with a wide band sensor or just a basic O2 sensor?.If it runs and just needs tuning then its relatively straight forward with a wide band set up and then using Tuner studio software or data logging it with mega log.
The difficulty s come when someone has installed it with the wrong hardware combination etc.
Im a way away from you but could maybe help if your stuck.
Paul


paulf - 6/6/10 at 02:50 PM

Tuner studio seems to pick up the correct version automatically when connected but if using mega tune you need to configure it correctly.
Paul

quote:
Originally posted by RichardK
Yeh, I've heard that with megasquirt you've got to use the software that first came (got setup) with the hardware to get any sort of reliability, I've also heard that rolling roads do like to use the end users laptops for just this reason.

Can you not find out the version you had, do you still have the hard drive that could be put into a caddy and the version of megatune copied off?

Cheers

Rich


Steve Lovelock - 6/6/10 at 02:57 PM

I might be able to get the original version off the old drive but it is a long shot. The Tuner studio might sove the compatibility issue a bit easier I guess.

I am running a wideband LC1 but the output is always a wild fluctuation and I don't know why.

I have another project that I want to be spending time on and as I spent hours reading the manuals first time round I just don't want to go down that road. Also, am using the car (sprint at Abingdon next weekend, Classic Le Mans next month, etc.) so feel reluctant to start messing with in my own as I don't want to make the car unusable.


paulf - 6/6/10 at 03:03 PM

Check the earth and signal connections on the wide band and make sure it is calibrated all the earth connections for wide band and megasquirt should be at a common point .Does the signal fluctuate if you remove the sensor from the exhaust and calibrate in free air ?
If you can get the MSQ posted on here someone should be able to advise on it.
Paul.

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Lovelock
I might be able to get the original version off the old drive but it is a long shot. The Tuner studio might sove the compatibility issue a bit easier I guess.

I am running a wideband LC1 but the output is always a wild fluctuation and I don't know why.

I have another project that I want to be spending time on and as I spent hours reading the manuals first time round I just don't want to go down that road. Also, am using the car (sprint at Abingdon next weekend, Classic Le Mans next month, etc.) so feel reluctant to start messing with in my own as I don't want to make the car unusable.


dlatch - 6/6/10 at 03:29 PM

not far from north london steve i have a laptop with megatune installed that works fine with my MS1 (your welcome to borrow it could at least get a copy of the current map for the MS guru's to checkout incase of any obvious errors.
i know the basics, but a lot will depend on the initial setup being right.
what injectors are fitted? whats their cc rating

i would think 10 hours would be worst case senario and making a new map from scratch a driveable map can be made in a matter of minutes providing everything is configured correctly.


atspeed racing - 7/6/10 at 07:09 AM

In fact save all the hours of messing around and fit an Omex system.
The car will drive better, give better fuel economy and will never give you any problems.
There is a reason why the Mega stuff is cheap.
If you were to buy good quality oats for a horse you would expect to pay a good price, but should you require oats that have already been through the horse, the price would be reduced!


dlatch - 7/6/10 at 08:27 PM

10 x £80 = £800 to map the megasquirt

or fit a omex for £700 + fitting + mapping ?

sure we would all love the omex but this is locost builders and the megasquirt is in the spirit of the forum.
atspeed i contacted you about fine tuning my map on megasquirt pretty much same setup as steve but i have a zetec and you never quoted me it could take 10 hours or even suggested it would take anywhere near that long.
i can understand you don't like megasquirt but i also think tuners are really missing a trick here by not wanting to work on megasquirt systems.
After seeing your reluctance to work on MS i think my business will be taken elsewhere as i can't afford a omex and have no intention of buying one.

[Edited on 7/6/10 by dlatch]


flak monkey - 7/6/10 at 08:39 PM

Omex is a good choice support is great and the rolling roads are familiar with it. Its a direct swap for megasquirt - the connections are all the same.

However there are things that megasquirt will do that Omex wont, and vice versa. Most people will never need the features though. Its also a lot more advances than it looks (MS) and does everything the Omex does on a low level - interpolate between load sites, run closed loop, individual cylinder trims, fully sequential fuelling and loads more.

Omex is a better and cheaper solution in the long run for people who dont want or cannot tune their own car.

Megasquirt is great for learning about EFI and getting stuck in. I had very good results with it on the pinto and to start with on the duratec.

The downside is the maths in the MS is a little less polished leading slightly less smooth fuelling.

MS should take no longer to tune than Omex in reality the same stuff has to be done and the software is good and as simple as Omex just laid out differently. It might not be quite a smooth in the end, but its £400 cheaper.


atspeed racing - 8/6/10 at 07:45 AM

We do not want to get into a slanging match Mega V something else.
I can say that omex..emerald...kms are far cheaper to calibrate and set up, their operating systems are much more stable and dont crash, as a tuner, having a unreliable platform to work from can cause endless problems, which is why we prefer not to use it, and we cannot offer any backup or warranty on it.
we are familiar with the megasquirt system, thats why we know there is much better and cost effective options after experiencing the customers problems and frustration first hand.

people phone us for advice, we give them HONEST advice, and people dont always like it, but if they want to be sugar coated into a false sense of security then they should ask other places for their opinions.
Our reputation is based on high quality tuning work, we prefer to work on systems that lend them selves to a safe reliable state of tune.

If you want the best from your car, you should be fitting other systems, many customers have felt noticeable differences instantly when changing from cheaper systems to professional systems. MS for example has very rough changes between load sites, and on a light car such as a locost exaggerates the problem, you have to sometimes map around the problem to make the car drive smooth, but sacrifice fuel economy.

as david has said, its good for people who want to get involved in efi tuning, and fair play to them!.. afterall its not an ecu (as far as im aware it doesnt have correct legal requirements, but may have changed now) its an educational learning tool.

Please dont take any offence to our comments and views and should you want your system set up, then please call. There was a comment made earlier about taking 10 hours to tune a Megasquirt. This is not correct, it took ten hours to do a customers car due to continuing problems with the system that he had, the actual mapping was more around 3 hours. The reason it took so long were due to continuous problems presented by his ecu, infact it held the injectors wide open at one point and we had to change his oil, it then decided to turn the fuel pump on and off intermitantly during running resulting in dangerously lean conditions under maximum load, this was an extreme example but on systems from the cheaper end of the market, it can happen with alarming regularity, sacrificing the driving experiences from your kit car.

[Edited on 8/6/10 by atspeed racing]


paulf - 8/6/10 at 01:43 PM

Megasquirt does work reasonably well for me, I have been running it for the last 4 years and enjoy experimenting with settings and data logging it etc.My car gave me some problems at first with acceleration enrichments etc which seem to be the hardest part to get right, it was easy to get a basic running map but the fine adjustments to make it nice to drive are the hard bit.
I have never had problems with software crashing and usually injectors sticking open or pulsating fuel pump is due to using the wrong version of mega-tune for the firmware in the ECU.
I recently set up a car for someone that was struggling as they were unfamiliar with the requirements and also had a set of bike throttle body's that a rolling road had told them were no good when fitted to on another car and sold them Jenveys.They had a number of minor installation faults but once corrected and the Tbs balanced It did not take to much time to get a running set up ready to map on the road.
I think that if someone wants to experiment and enjoys fiddling with settings as long as they can make a good job of the basic installation and wiring then they will get on ok with Megasquirt.If someone is just looking for a reliable way to fuel the engine with a minimum of effort then they are best to pay the extra and buy a setup that the rolling road they are using understands fully and wants to work with.
Paul


atspeed racing - 8/6/10 at 02:41 PM

quote:
Originally posted by paulf
Megasquirt does work reasonably well for me, I have been running it for the last 4 years and enjoy experimenting with settings and data logging it etc.My car gave me some problems at first with acceleration enrichments etc which seem to be the hardest part to get right, it was easy to get a basic running map but the fine adjustments to make it nice to drive are the hard bit.
I have never had problems with software crashing and usually injectors sticking open or pulsating fuel pump is due to using the wrong version of mega-tune for the firmware in the ECU.
I recently set up a car for someone that was struggling as they were unfamiliar with the requirements and also had a set of bike throttle body's that a rolling road had told them were no good when fitted to on another car and sold them Jenveys.They had a number of minor installation faults but once corrected and the Tbs balanced It did not take to much time to get a running set up ready to map on the road.
I think that if someone wants to experiment and enjoys fiddling with settings as long as they can make a good job of the basic installation and wiring then they will get on ok with Megasquirt.If someone is just looking for a reliable way to fuel the engine with a minimum of effort then they are best to pay the extra and buy a setup that the rolling road they are using understands fully and wants to work with.
Paul


I think you have hit the nail on the head with you comments.
The problem that we have is that we cannot spend hours fiddling with a troublsome system as the customer has to pay for this. So for many companies that do specialise, they need a good fast system to use, have a good factory backup with a replacement unit available quickly. This would be more important to a race car that could be competing that weekend . It does not take many hours before your cost saving ECU starts to become expensive.

For the money spent it is good value, perhaps better value if you do all the start up, cruise and the basic stuff and then finalise on the rolling road to get it spot on.
Alan


dlatch - 8/6/10 at 05:59 PM

ATspeed
what you posted i would pretty much aggree with you and paulf
100%
what i would say is 99% of megasquirt problems are the install rather than the actual tuning process its self, and a well built MS system have been proven to be reliable and effective but almost every professional tuner i have ever spoken to about fine tuning a MS all assume its been lashed together and will be a nightmare and they all advise "buy a proper ecu" this does not help the competent builder that got MS to learn the basics and at least further our understanding (sure you can appreciate a love of making engines work and work better with tuning)
what many MS users out there require is a final tweak on a rolling road to get the map as good as it can get which is not really possible on the road and live mapping.
its also entirely possible that many MS users will in time and when funds allow upgrade the ecu just like we would any other component in the quest for more speed and a company that had all ready tuned our MS system would feature highly on the list of supplying a new ecu.
i have driven a few MS equiped cars and they all varied according to the builder/tuner's ability (from abosolutely fab to almost undriveable) and the capabilities of MS were never imo the limit of what was achieved but the effort/skill put into the build was.


Steve Lovelock - 8/6/10 at 07:26 PM

I want to qualify that when I spoke to Atspeed I got a very clear and honest assessment of the likely timescales and was happy with the conversation. My worry comes from the fact that I am not convinced I have everything set correctly and therefore that the mapping will require some investigation and time spent on it. I would expect a professional to charge for that and have no problem with it. However, I am also sure that somebody with a greater mental capacity for all things MS than me might be able to get my car running better than it does and that I would be happy to pay somebody to give up there time to help me achieve that. For the record I bought the whole package in America for $400 when $2 = £1 and at £200 it has made for great value. I think that the basic settings are hap-hazzard and that someone who understands them would probably be able to get things better than they are now. The offer still stands, if any of you who have got their own system sorted want to spend a day on my car then I'd happily pay for it. Atspeed, I certainly didn't intend to say anything disrespecting about you.

Steve


atspeed racing - 9/6/10 at 11:54 AM

I would like to thank the comments from the posters on this thread, it makes a change to get nice people agreeing, sort of, maybe disagreeing on certain points, but are prepared to except others point of view without growing horns and getting there silly head on and spouting obscene comments just because they dont agree.
We are here to help (and to promote Atspeed), we do answer PM's from people and like to think we offer some good sound advise and we do this for no instant reward, but a thank you does go along way.
We enjoy our work here and we do like to help when we can.


Neville Jones - 9/6/10 at 01:09 PM

Have you contacted the guy at Extra Efi? Very helpful.

http://www.extraefi.co.uk/

Cheers,
Nev

[Edited on 9/6/10 by Neville Jones]