Alright, what should I be looking for on this one.

I've been tuning up the engine today. Started a bit nasty and now pretty sweet. Not perfect but getting there and very drivable. Engine is gsxr1100 and turbo from a Volvo T5, with MegaSquirt 2 running Extra 3.1.1.

So I have started trying to tune up the outer edges of the map. If flies to about 8kRPM, and then it goes a bit stuttery. I have logged it. The trigger wheel is fine (no sync errors). Here is a screen shot from the offending region from MLV. The non-smooth curves and the drop off of increasing RPM is the offending region.




It may be a bit rich because I didn't want to detonate another engine.

Have I got a problem with the spark being blown-out? I have dyna coils and standard plug and gaps.
I haven't done a 8kRPM plug chop, which is what I should have done.

Any thoughts on this appreciated.


Thanks,

Matt

Looks like the TPS dropped at around 8500, was that you closing the throttle?

You said you are running it rich, looks like 12.5 AFR at 8000ish, that is LEAN, you should be running 11/11.5 to be safe, bike engines are weak, you can melt a piston very very easily.

The Hayabusa i did a wile ago used a stock Ford gen1 zetec coil and custom leads, it rev'd to 14K without misfire with 1mm plug gaps, so if you suspect a miss due to blowout replace the coils for a coilpack, 3.1 dwell, 0.6 spark duration in megatune

It's quite hard to see but it looks like the fluctuations on the PW match the fluctuations on the TPS. Are you using some sort of blended MAP/Alpha-N fuelling?

I am running SD multiplied with a Alpha-N table, so the PW fluctuations will be due to a bit of TPS.
In the second of the two surges I was braver and nailed the throttle so no TPS fluctuations, but still the stuttering (I can feel the stuttering and the power drops off). I think this texture in the PW is a symptom of the stuttering.


Regarding the fueling. Rich/lean. I suppose what I am saying is that there is 10% more fuel going in at the same MAP and TPS and past the normal torque peak. So I think there isn't too little fuel and that the AFR is getting upset by the missfire.


What are the symptoms of blow-out? If I close down the spark gap would that help fix it?

Sorry to be a newbie on this stuff. My thinking was with only 8psi, forged pistons (that get oil sprayed onto their undersides) and reduced compression I should be pretty safe at 12.5, but I am still learning.

[Edited on 29/5/11 by matt_gsxr]

Most of the boosted maps I have seen have much less ignition timing and run much richer than you currently are. Try around 20 degrees of ignition advance and closer to 11:1 and see if the situation is improved.

I would personally aim for around 12:1 on WOT.....This is what I have been told when I did mapping on the rollers with the guy that own the dyno.

I would go for iridium plugs with the thin 0.6mm electrode..... they seem not to suffer so much with the spark blow out..... and with still fire even with super rich/lean mixtures. It may be worth going for a cooler plug too

Ironically I fitted some Iridium plugs that I had stashed away, but it was too late to go for a road test. I closed up the gap slightly.

Once the stuttering starts that AFR doesn't mean much at the moment. But will richen up my target map too, better to be safe than sorry.


Thanks all,

Matt

If you need a co-driver to fiddle with the tables or keep an eye on the computer to help spot while you drive I'm sure I could find a few hours one evening.

Kind offer.
I am not sure I would so readily volunteer for a WOT test with an unknown.

I think I am going to sort out some of the other details (intercooler, bonnet insulation it got up to 95degC, which is a bit warm for fibreglass) and get the thing reliable before I expose others to this thing.

Matt

no worries I am fairly local so give me a shout if you need a hand..... i will try my best to help

The TPS reading starts to get a bit noisy before the first big dip (presumably when you backed off). Have you made sure the TPS wires are routed well away from the coils and injector wiring?

I think Mike what we are seeing is a combination of concern, a slightly bumpy road and "the fear". What would be known in IT as a problem between keyboard and chair.

I guess the TPS fluctuations would set off some Acceleration Enrichment, but I don't think this is the source of the problem.

What about this one for example. The fluctuations in the fueling are clearly correlated with fluctuations in the RPM, and these come about as a result of the stuttering.
Like this one say (again the TPS does have a slight flutter 100 or 99, but not as much).

Description

I have far too much fuel at this end of the table, because when I first felt this I was worried that it was detonation. The AFR of 14.7 is an artefact of the problem and not what the engine is getting.

Before the question comes up. Fuel pump is Walbro 255l/hour (over kill), Fuel pressure regulator is AIR004 (or AIR001, can't remember) (Malpassi bought from FSE) and set at 3.25atm (not manifold referenced). Injectors are s2000. I think that the fuel is getting in there, but that it isn't burning, but happy to be corrected.

I don't know much about this turbo stuff (only what I have read and broken).

Matt

Pin the wategate wide open and see if it stutters with no boost .

Interesting idea. The wastegate spring is 5psi, my MAP doesn't pay attention to such fripperies. Previously I had fairly serious overboosting , but have put a baffle in the exhaust which helps with this and appeases the neighbours.

I will try your idea, but suspect I will still get some boost.

Previously this engine and set-up (without the turbo) reved up fine.

What would this tell me if it reved up fine?

Matt

Have you taken it for drive since changing the plugs?

What are you using for the crank position sensor - the original ignition pickup?

quote:

---

Originally posted by BenTyreman
Most of the boosted maps I have seen have much less ignition timing and run much richer than you currently are. Try around 20 degrees of ignition advance and closer to 11:1 and see if the situation is improved.

---

Got some info from a serial gsxr1100wp turbo builder (he builds for others as well as himself)

AFR below 11.5 hurts power.
AFR below 10 gives miss-fires.
Aim for 12 at 15psi.

I guess I either have it too rich, or the spark be being blown away, maybe both.
I'll drop the mixture a little, and try the Iridium plugs.

Too wet to try anything out today.

Matt

[Edited on 30/5/11 by matt_gsxr]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MikeRJ
What are you using for the crank position sensor - the original ignition pickup?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BaileyPerformance

quote:

---

Originally posted by BenTyreman
Most of the boosted maps I have seen have much less ignition timing and run much richer than you currently are. Try around 20 degrees of ignition advance and closer to 11:1 and see if the situation is improved.

---

Please please be careful with ignition timing with boosted engines, i have only ever worked with hayabusa 08 NA but that engine made full power at 31deg timing, i would expect a boosted version to require 10degrees (maybe upto 14 at max RPM)

Aim for 11AFR, forged pistons are stronger and normally will withstand high temps but will melt nearly as well as a stock piston!

Turbo Zetec 8deg total timing at 1bar
Cosworth (stock engine) 7-9deg at 1 bar
Cosworth race engine 5deg at 22psi
Nissan 300xz (stock engine) 16deg at 1bar
Nissan race engine (550+bhp) 7deg at 25psi

The stock bike engine will breath very well, so loads of timing is not required, when you modify a car engine to make it breath LESS timing is required.

These figures are what i have seen on my dyno.

---

I do agree running it too rich will hurt power, that is true on most turbo engines, but the extra fuel gives you some insurance while you are getting the timing right, going from 11 to 12 AFR will only gain you 5% power at a guess, but one day you mite get the engine abit hot (hot air temp) and cause det. The sensible way to go is run 12 at low boost (5psi), more fuel at high boost.(15psi)

The optimum AFR to ignite the fuel is 11AFR, more or less fuel is harder to burn.

I had problems with the stock Hayabusa COPs, swapped to Ford coilpack and all was well, wouldnt be too much effort to swap from dyna to Ford? i know the Ford coilpack is good to 14KRPM

I would run 9/10 plugs (nothing fancy) gapped at 0.8mm

would be very interested on how much power it makes, what are they stock?

if you get a clean rev with no boost its showing your spark strength up as its hard work with the charge time on a bike engine to keep the spark strength at high revs . it may well make a couple of psi with the gate pinned but should prove a point and from what you said it does sound like you need a better spark

quote:

---

Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
I do agree running it too rich will hurt power, that is true on most turbo engines, but the extra fuel gives you some insurance while you are getting the timing right, going from 11 to 12 AFR will only gain you 5% power at a guess, but one day you mite get the engine abit hot (hot air temp) and cause det. The sensible way to go is run 12 at low boost (5psi), more fuel at high boost.(15psi)

The optimum AFR to ignite the fuel is 11AFR, more or less fuel is harder to burn.

I had problems with the stock Hayabusa COPs, swapped to Ford coilpack and all was well, wouldnt be too much effort to swap from dyna to Ford? i know the Ford coilpack is good to 14KRPM

I would run 9/10 plugs (nothing fancy) gapped at 0.8mm

would be very interested on how much power it makes, what are they stock?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by froggy
if you get a clean rev with no boost its showing your spark strength up as its hard work with the charge time on a bike engine to keep the spark strength at high revs . it may well make a couple of psi with the gate pinned but should prove a point and from what you said it does sound like you need a better spark

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by froggy
if you get a clean rev with no boost its showing your spark strength up as its hard work with the charge time on a bike engine to keep the spark strength at high revs . it may well make a couple of psi with the gate pinned but should prove a point and from what you said it does sound like you need a better spark

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by matt_gsxr

quote:

---

Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
I do agree running it too rich will hurt power, that is true on most turbo engines, but the extra fuel gives you some insurance while you are getting the timing right, going from 11 to 12 AFR will only gain you 5% power at a guess, but one day you mite get the engine abit hot (hot air temp) and cause det. The sensible way to go is run 12 at low boost (5psi), more fuel at high boost.(15psi)

The optimum AFR to ignite the fuel is 11AFR, more or less fuel is harder to burn.

I had problems with the stock Hayabusa COPs, swapped to Ford coilpack and all was well, wouldnt be too much effort to swap from dyna to Ford? i know the Ford coilpack is good to 14KRPM

I would run 9/10 plugs (nothing fancy) gapped at 0.8mm

would be very interested on how much power it makes, what are they stock?

---

Thanks again for your expert advice. It sounds like a good idea to aim for AFR of 11 whilst I get everything nice.

People drag these a fair amount so there are some silly numbers. But it seems that 250bhp at about 1atm should be reasonable, and matches the Td04-16T power output in the Volvo T5R.

Stock power is rated at 150bhp (on carbs), but these figures are seen as optimistic by most even when new and this is a 1994 engine.

As you probably know these were used in sidecars and I am told (by a sidecar guy who also raced these extensively) that Steve Webster (serial world champ) got 210-220bhp out of one (normally aspirated, but bored out, big valves, LCR's, etc etc).

At the moment I have wasted spark. So not sure how that would convert. I haven't got the end of my brick yet, so will try some of the ideas from here which are mostly software before getting on e-bay!

Plugs were stock (9's), but I will try Iridium ones (as I have a set kicking around), and will check the gaping.

Thanks again,

Matt

---

Thanks, I didn't realise it was as simple as that.

When you mentioned Ford coils packs I started thinking of EDIS, and that was something that I didn't understand (or want to).

Are all Ford coilpacks with 3 leads made equal? What model of scrapper am I looking at? anything but Diesels?

I like the idea of this modification, as I can sell the Dyna for a few quid, and they are as heavy as hell.


Insulating my bonnet tonight, as I have been putting this off, and I don't want it to go up in fire.

Matt

most fords of the mid 90s onwards I think..... but there are a 1st and 2nd generation of coil pack. Think it something to do with either the way the leads attach or the plug used to connect to the loom. Make sure you cut the plug off the car you take it from and maybe the leads too if they are any good.

Think I might have a spare coilpack and plug going spare if you're interested?

u2u me if so.

Cheers

Rich

quote:

---

Originally posted by mikemph
most fords of the mid 90s onwards I think..... but there are a 1st and 2nd generation of coil pack. Think it something to do with either the way the leads attach or the plug used to connect to the loom. Make sure you cut the plug off the car you take it from and maybe the leads too if they are any good.

---

Thanks for these tips. I got a coil pack from Richard, and some new leads from e-bay (sometimes it makes sense to buy new), they arrived today and I fitted it all together this evening and the car idles fine.

At the moment I am awaiting a last silicone hose bend and a few hose clips so that I can connect up the intercooler that I fitted at the weekend. Then I can see if the coilpack fixes the problem. I have made a few other changes, too, so it isn't scientific.

The new leads look nice installed, much more factory than before (previously ignition leads were Yellow due to an e-bay error on my part!).


I have set the ignition timing to "standard dwell", "Maximum dwell=3.1ms, Acceleration compensation = 1ms, maximum spark duration = 0.6ms". The dwell time is greyed out (I guess Standard Dwell doesn't use it).

If any of these numbers look wrong then let me know (previously I had it on fixed duty cycle).

Thanks,

Matt

Coilpack in place (thanks Richard)


Almost OEM, and way better than those yellow leads I had before!



Seems to rev up too (although quite a few changes in addition to the leads so can't be sure its the sparks).




Still a bit of tidying to do, but getting there now.

Thanks guys,

Matt

Who are you and what have you done with Matt? You can't be him... this thread has got to 4 pages and he's not blown the engine up yet!

Looks good...... how is it running now?

quote:

---

Originally posted by adithorp
Who are you and what have you done with Matt? You can't be him... this thread has got to 4 pages and he's not blown the engine up yet!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mikemph
Looks good...... how is it running now?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by matt_gsxr
Coilpack in place (thanks Richard)


Almost OEM, and way better than those yellow leads I had before!



Seems to rev up too (although quite a few changes in addition to the leads so can't be sure its the sparks).




Still a bit of tidying to do, but getting there now.

Thanks guys,

Matt

---

Good spotting.

The non-connection of the pressure feed was a deliberate design decision.

Here was the logic.

+Engine is ITB, so the MAP pressure take-off is after the throttles. Hence the pressure changes very quickly.
Therefore I was concerned that the pressure regulator (and associated hoses) would not be able to track the pressure from the MAP.

+I have upped the pressure to 3.5bar, and have a 0.33bar spring on the wastegate. So fuel pressure difference should remain at or around 3bar.

+The ECU mapping (which uses the MAP sensor and TPS) will then look after the variable flow rate from the injectors that is due to MAP.




You know much more about this than me and I know this is standard when running a single big throttle body, so I am grateful for your advice and always keen to learn. Have you had good results when mapping ITB turbo engines with the fuel pressure regulator after the ITBs. I am happy to connect this up. This isn't the source of my previous problems, but I can see it becoming more of an issue once the boost is raised.


Matt

quote:

---

Originally posted by matt_gsxr
Good spotting.

The non-connection of the pressure feed was a deliberate design decision.

Here was the logic.

+Engine is ITB, so the MAP pressure take-off is after the throttles. Hence the pressure changes very quickly.
Therefore I was concerned that the pressure regulator (and associated hoses) would not be able to track the pressure from the MAP.

+I have upped the pressure to 3.5bar, and have a 0.33bar spring on the wastegate. So fuel pressure difference should remain at or around 3bar.

+The ECU mapping (which uses the MAP sensor and TPS) will then look after the variable flow rate from the injectors that is due to MAP.




You know much more about this than me and I know this is standard when running a single big throttle body, so I am grateful for your advice and always keen to learn. Have you had good results when mapping ITB turbo engines with the fuel pressure regulator after the ITBs. I am happy to connect this up. This isn't the source of my previous problems, but I can see it becoming more of an issue once the boost is raised.


Matt

---

MS2 daughter card in an MS1 chassis (so MS2).

I am using the MAP as the primary load and TPS as secondary, with multiply MAP so as to help with dynamic range of values. Bit of a bugger to map (the standard tools are not very good for blended), but I have a big computer at work and am using that, so I know I can do it. I have been told that these engines can be mapped with Alpha-N and multiply MAP alone (which was interesting to me), by a guy who maps a few of these (although he hasn't got a big computer like I do!).

Presently MAP sensor is connected up as you describe, with a small orifice and a fuel pressure filter at the MS end. The MAP is nice and stable.

I have found that MAP is actually pretty nice for idle fueling, the TPS does work (have tried it on gsxr600 and gsxr1000 bodies) but off idle the MAP works nicer (in my limited experience). Presently running gsxr600 bodies and a stock (95) head (not the big valve sidecar monster that I have been running).


I will connect up the pressure regulator as you have suggested. I wasn't sure but always keen to learn.


Regarding ignition mapping. I had previously used my stock TPS vs RPM based map (stock Suzuki on the gsf1250 which is a very similar engine), but retarded it with boost by about 5deg at 8psi and 10deg at 16psi (for one day).


These set-ups with ITB and turbo are quite interesting. The airflow depends in a complicated way on MAP and TPS. I picked up some Skyline MAF just in case I can't map it, but it doesn't seem to be too bad, just a bit wierd.

Matt

quote:

---

Originally posted by matt_gsxr
MS2 daughter card in an MS1 chassis (so MS2).

I am using the MAP as the primary load and TPS as secondary, with multiply MAP so as to help with dynamic range of values. Bit of a bugger to map (the standard tools are not very good for blended), but I have a big computer at work and am using that, so I know I can do it. I have been told that these engines can be mapped with Alpha-N and multiply MAP alone (which was interesting to me), by a guy who maps a few of these (although he hasn't got a big computer like I do!).

Presently MAP sensor is connected up as you describe, with a small orifice and a fuel pressure filter at the MS end. The MAP is nice and stable.

I have found that MAP is actually pretty nice for idle fueling, the TPS does work (have tried it on gsxr600 and gsxr1000 bodies) but off idle the MAP works nicer (in my limited experience). Presently running gsxr600 bodies and a stock (95) head (not the big valve sidecar monster that I have been running).


I will connect up the pressure regulator as you have suggested. I wasn't sure but always keen to learn.


Regarding ignition mapping. I had previously used my stock TPS vs RPM based map (stock Suzuki on the gsf1250 which is a very similar engine), but retarded it with boost by about 5deg at 8psi and 10deg at 16psi (for one day).


These set-ups with ITB and turbo are quite interesting. The airflow depends in a complicated way on MAP and TPS. I picked up some Skyline MAF just in case I can't map it, but it doesn't seem to be too bad, just a bit wierd.

Matt

---

I don't think it makes much difference which is primary and which is secondary for the load as it only multiplies the two.
Your logic for alpha-N with a bit of MAP correction is sound though. I think my MAP also does some correction for the lack of my rising rate pressure (at the moment, I haven't swapped yet).


Interestingly I get boost from about 2700rpm, so I am boost quite a bit (given that the engine revs to 11k).


I am in Oxford so its 100miles to Telford, but once I get close I fancy bringing it over to get it fine tuned.

Matt

quote:

---

Originally posted by matt_gsxr
I don't think it makes much difference which is primary and which is secondary for the load as it only multiplies the two.
Your logic for alpha-N with a bit of MAP correction is sound though. I think my MAP also does some correction for the lack of my rising rate pressure (at the moment, I haven't swapped yet).


Interestingly I get boost from about 2700rpm, so I am boost quite a bit (given that the engine revs to 11k).


I am in Oxford so its 100miles to Telford, but once I get close I fancy bringing it over to get it fine tuned.

Matt

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BaileyPerformance

Hi Matt,
Done some testing on my focus development car today (MS2), if you set primary load to Alpha N, and secondary load to Speed density, but select additive instead of multiply, you can map the engine on Alpha N first. I entered all zeros in the second VE table (speed density), mapped on Alpha N (VE table 1) then when back and mapped VE table 2 for boost correction.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by matt_gsxr

quote:

---

Originally posted by BaileyPerformance

Hi Matt,
Done some testing on my focus development car today (MS2), if you set primary load to Alpha N, and secondary load to Speed density, but select additive instead of multiply, you can map the engine on Alpha N first. I entered all zeros in the second VE table (speed density), mapped on Alpha N (VE table 1) then when back and mapped VE table 2 for boost correction.

---

Just trying to get my head around what you have said here.

So, is this on the road or on your rolling road? I will assume on the road.

Are you running the TunerStudio "auto-tune" to set up the Alpha-N.

And then using the "autotune" in MegaLogViewer to sort out the second VE (speed density).




Does focus have ITB's or a single throttle body.

Matt

---

cool.

I already have an NA map as I used to run the engine NA (slightly different, but same intake), so could use that as a base.

TuneStudio (and MLV) autotune functions are actually pretty nice for most tuning. Without a rolling road it is impossible to hold load, so unless you have a talented buddy in the passenger seat then the computerised method is a good alternative.

Thanks again for the tips.

Matt

Just as an update. Fitted new ford coils, fitted Iridium plugs, gapped the plugs a bit tighter (20thou).

Problem persisted.

Looked more carefully at the logs and a few wierd things are happening.

Fueling PW go all over the place and not following Gve. Dopey me, I've left the fuel cut on in the AE and when given the beans the TPS is all over the place. So its cutting fuel. I have been adding more and more fuel to compensate, so it goes super super rich. My LC-1 configuration is set up to go from 10-20 and it has been nailed at the bottom of this range. At least it is now stable now that I have turned off the Fuel cut, and I can get the engine to rev up if I choose an appropriate throttle position.

I think the missfires are messing with the temperature signals (it jumps around a bit).



Plan is to recalibrate the LC-1 output and MS2 input so it gives readings when super-rich (i.e. down to 8 or 9).

Cut the fuel a little.

And try again.

Must say though that the midrange it truly mighty even with a meagre 6psi of boost. I have wired up the boost controller, so might aim for a bit more (9psi sounds like a nice number) and see what lets go first.


More as it happens,

Matt

Fueling now sorted, which has moved the problem on a bit.

Now it runs powerfully to the stuttering point!

Seems like I have noise on my trigger wheel (LM1815N circuit with a 12-1 wheel).

I need to read up on filtering and earthing, I remember seeing something about a capacitor on the coils (which I don't have).

Some steps forward and some back.

Matt

Basic question - ignore if you know this already...

Do you have screened cable on your VR sensor?

If so, have you only earthed the screening at one end only? If you earth both ends then it can form a loop that can actually make interference worse!

David,


Good point.
I have used twin core shielded (microphone cable from maplins), it is earthed to the MS box. The box is earthed by being bolted down, the MS box doesn't get an earth from the DB37.

The transistors for the Coils are bolted quite closely to the LM1815N (VR trigger wheel conditioning) circuit.


I did wear through the VR cable once (embarrassingly it wasn't tied down when I did some tests and rubbed) so I might not have reconnected up the earthing.

Having read around, it seems that there is a capacitor on the coils that can be added (standard on Fords it seems) which might help. I am also getting a bit of noise on my water temp sensor (which uses the cars earth) but not on the air temp sensor (which has its own earth).

I have run some trigger logs and the symptoms are dropped teeth, I think these correspond to ignition events. I am running the LM1815N as adaptive. I am pretty confident that I can do a few things that will fix this, as it isn't that bad.



It seems difficult to know whether the spikes are due to missfires, or the missfires are due to the spikes, but the solution would seem to be to check/rectify the earthing, sheild sensitive cables, keep offending cables apart, and add capacitance to anything that looks troublesome!



Matt

Update:

So, I changed to the Ford coil pack, and Iridium plugs (as suggested)
No real improvement, although seemed to idle better!

So, I added 3x4.7uF poly capacitors between the live of the coil and the earth.
No improvement.

So, I went around tidying all the wiring, moving sensor wire paths away from ignition, injection and alternator wires.
No improvement. Actually slightly worse!!!!

So, swapped plugs to non-Iridiums, tied down more cables, and discovered the power output from Alternator was loose


Problem solved. I think the cable was flopping around at the problem RPM which was giving some nasty spikes.
Reved up to 10kRPM on boost no problem. Seems to be working now.


Only problem, is that I have water getting into the oil, so need to sort the head gasket out. E-bay barrels and pistons, looked okay, but I guess they needed a skim.


Never mind.

Matt

Good good glad you got it sorted in the end

Thanks Mike,

1 step forward, 1 step back. My oil breather catch bottle was full (I mean to the brim) with mayonnaise after the last run.

But I've got enough engine parts kicking around the shed to build 3 engines*.


Matt


*all of them as dodgy as the last 3 that I have built!