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Anyone care to look at my MS maps?
dave_424 - 9/7/13 at 06:07 PM

Hi, I have a ZX9 turbo engine in an offroad buggy and need to get it to the stage in tuning where I need to be able to drive it up a private lane (From storage shed to workshop) a few times, onto a trailer for when it is taken to get mapped properly and also for a few quick rips around a field to make sure that everything engine and also frame wise is in good working order before I go to get it mapped so I'm not going to waste their time.

I am using dual tables, Alpha_N for fuel and ignition with multiply MAP and when manifold pressure is above 98KPA then I have an additive table so that I can fine tune the fuel and ignition when in boost.

Overboost protection is set to 7.5psi, planned boost is 6psi, overboost is set to cut 5 of 5 sparks until boost drops to 3psi

I have got the ignition table from a standard ZX10r table and the fuel map is from a ZX12/14 I was hoping it would put me somewhere in the ballpark, I have a wideband so the fuel side of things I can easily adjust but it was mainly the spark table I wanted.

Anyone see anything wrong?

Fuel map 1


Fuel map 2 (I'll see how multiply MAP handles boost and adjust accordingly)


Ignition table 1


Ignition table 2

omega0684 - 9/7/13 at 06:43 PM

VE Table 2 could use a bit of work . . . . . Sorry, i'll get my coat!

dave_424 - 9/7/13 at 06:51 PM

Thanks with multiply MAP on, if I'm putting in 30% more air then it will add 30% more fuel, that table is there so that I can adjust the compensation. Granted just the multiply MAP would keep me at around 13.5:1 AFR and for boost you need more like 11.5:1 AFR so I will put a small amount in there to richer it up when on boost

Dave

ashg - 9/7/13 at 08:02 PM

whatever you do don't use that ignition map on a turbo. you need to retard ignition as the boost goes up or you will kill it in minutes.

dave_424 - 9/7/13 at 08:11 PM

That's what my second ignition map does, from 3 psi to 5.8 psi I've retarded 2 degrees and beyond that I've pulled 4 degrees. Zx9 turbos run stock ignition with 6 psi no problem.

Is this enough retard?

Dave

BaileyPerformance - 10/7/13 at 09:12 AM

quote:
Originally posted by dave_424
That's what my second ignition map does, from 3 psi to 5.8 psi I've retarded 2 degrees and beyond that I've pulled 4 degrees. Zx9 turbos run stock ignition with 6 psi no problem.

Is this enough retard?

Dave


No, thats not enough retard in my opinion, you said the stock ignition is OK with 6psi? that maybe OK if very low compression and charge is very cool, if you work on pulling 1 degree EVERY pound of boost upto 10PSI than pull another couple above that just to be safe. The key is use to enough timing to get the power, not as much as you can get away with. Bike engines will NOT take must detonation before they die, so take care. (plus its hard to hear det as they are often noisy anyway)

Your VE table looks wrong, in NA form even a really good engine will not see 150% VE. yours mite see 95%, looks like you have your REQ_FUEL settings wrong, this will not cause a mayor problem but is not right.

dave_424 - 10/7/13 at 09:27 AM

Thanks for the reply Dale, I was looking to go very conservative on timing until I can get it to you.

I'll take another look at the fuel VE table and ignition retard when on boost. The fuel VE table was taken from an original ZX12 ECU but their table values probably work in a different way to megasquirt. Would something like just downloading a base map for something like an MX5 or something and just change the RPM bins get me somewhere that is probably drivable?

Dale is there much of a waiting list for mapping? I'm just trying to get someone with a trailer with a free weekend to take it to you for mapping.

Thanks

Dave

BaileyPerformance - 10/7/13 at 09:53 AM

quote:
Originally posted by dave_424
Thanks for the reply Dale, I was looking to go very conservative on timing until I can get it to you.

I'll take another look at the fuel VE table and ignition retard when on boost. The fuel VE table was taken from an original ZX12 ECU but their table values probably work in a different way to megasquirt. Would something like just downloading a base map for something like an MX5 or something and just change the RPM bins get me somewhere that is probably drivable?

Dale is there much of a waiting list for mapping? I'm just trying to get someone with a trailer with a free weekend to take it to you for mapping.

Thanks

Dave


Hi Dave,

You should get an idea of the "shape" of the VE table from the factory ECU, but it would only be a very rough guide.

If you can just get it idling over without getting hot with no leaks it ready for me to map, we will hit every cell on the VEs and timing tables on the dyno anyway.

We have a car trailer and Land Rover if that helps? would need to charge you something for fuel thou.

Can fit you in next week all been well??

dave_424 - 10/7/13 at 10:13 AM

Here is what I now have, a base tune for a turbo MX5 and retard ignition 1 degree per pound of boost.



This should get me at least somewhere where I can move it up to the workshop.

All the work that needs doing to it is I am re doing the front engine mounts, they were weak and rough so now doing them a low better, need to wire the radiator fan into the rad switch and then get it idling well to make sure there are no leaks/overheating.

One thing dale, is that my water temp sensor is a single wire and the sensor ground, grounds through the block. Not ideal I know, I may have also seen it rise when I revved the engine so either it's not getting a good connection or there is noise somewhere. There is no noise in the TPS wire.

Dale, let me send you a message about cost for you to pick it up, I would have paid whoever I used to tow it so it sounds like a possibility. I expect either next week (I will do the work on the weekend) or the following week.

Thanks

Dave

matt_gsxr - 15/7/13 at 11:07 AM

Just a few thoughts.

Best to have a two wire temperature sensor. Most EFI ones are 2 wire (for the earthing reasons that you describe).

In the ignition table, I have found that I can get a stable idle if the timing is a bit less advanced at the ideal idle RPM, and more advanced below that RPM level. This seems to stabilize the idle (it is a trick described in the Dave Walker EFI Haynes manual).

For my engine I drop off 8deg per atmosphere of boost pressure, and add that to stock timing (which looks much like your timing).

I would add a few more TPS levels just above idle (i.e. between 0 and 2.8), to help tuning. That transition between closed and cracked open does massively affect airflow and may not be well handled by the big steps that you have there. It is an area of the tune that matters too.

The 150's at 2000rpm in your VE table seems a bit strange, I'd be surprised if these are correct. I wouldn't have expected anything higher than 100 in that area as there will be no boost.

In your most recent post it looks like you have changed from alpha-N to SD. My experiences are that you need to take account of the TPS when tuning a turbo bike with ITB, so I preferred your earlier approach. Just for pootling up the lane it might not matter though.

coyoteboy - 15/7/13 at 01:42 PM

quote:

The key is use to enough timing to get the power, not as much as you can get away with.


This is probably the most sensible EFI advice I've seen on many sites in a long time, an approach that seems lacking in many people's methonds. It seems many think max advance before knock =max power and generally it's not that simple and it's not worth the risk of damage running right on the raggedy edge for potentially no gain.

That said, ign timing is so damned hard to tune safely on a turbo without a rolling road, I personally would just set a boost and rev limit to avoid those areas until mapping could be done properly.

dave_424 - 15/7/13 at 03:14 PM

Well the settings I posted last managed to get it running pretty well. A little rich because my engine has very low vacuum (70kpa at idle) which I guess is down to the very lumpy and aggressive cam that's in the ZX9. Small amount of smoke from the turbo because it is very close to being mounted too low. Oil level is still quite high so may drain a small amount of oil that should hopefully stop smoke.

Idling on this hot day with 14.7 AFR and the fan on constantly (read below) it was struggling to get above about 75 degrees.

My IAC 2 is going to control the fan, just need to do a jumper on the board for this, what can control settings would you guys reccommend? I was thinking fan coming on at 85 degrees the. Turn off at 80 degrees.

Dave

matt_gsxr - 19/7/13 at 11:37 AM

What does your thermostat open at?
Mine is labeled 76degC.

You don't really want the fan coming on as your drive around, only when stationary as road speed will generate plenty of airflow and fans use a fair amount of electrical power.
The temperature the MS sees (with the sensor where it is) is higher than the fan switch in the radiator.

For those reasons I'd aim a bit higher than on at 85degC.

dave_424 - 19/7/13 at 05:59 PM

My thermostat opens at 58-60 degrees from the service manual. What would you guy's suggest? am I correct with my 80-85 degree settings?

This is an off road buggy to it gets full throttle pretty much constantly and isn't always going particularly fast.

Dave