So having been up to Dale's we though we had Ironed out all the issues, any electrical noise, by putting a shielded cable all the way to the vr crank sensor, adding a capacitor to both the 12v and 5v circuits.. however something odd is still happening.

I left fully thinking the issue is just unavoidable as at really light throttle, it will open up the butterflies but nothing registers at the ecu (Megasquirt 1 extra) for a bit, which makes getting the fuelling right for that bit to be a problem, so very lightly going from idle to a tad more makes it go lean and if you do so too slowly it could conk out. Dale tweaked the best he could within the limits of the throttle linkage. I left happy after going for a spin..

However, it isn't just that, it after a good run ie, got properly hot etc hits points where it will show a loss in rpm signal, but I also spotted that the LC2 wideband is being powered off and on as it takes a few seconds to register the afr again.. Ie the ecu is cutting off the fuel pump relay ( which i use to run the LC2 from)

Dale did wonder if the resistance on the VR sensor was a but low when he was testing the shielded cable setup, so I will be replacing it, but thought I would put this out to all.

here are a couple of vids which show what is happening.. It is bad enough that when sitting in traffic, or at the lights it can conk out, pulling away slowly can cause it to bunny hop, even stall.. each time the rpms drop and the lc2 resets, so it does look like an ecu reset. It didn't happen all day yesterday when it was on the rollers ! we only spotted some electrical interference when Dale was adding the tach output and we had a relay coil in the mix, which led to the shielded cable... (the etb gauge actually ended up just needing a pull up resistor)

just to be clear, Dale didn't experience any of this and has done an awesome job, I'll be pointing him towards this post !

any way any thoughts on this odd behaviour?
does a loss of crank signal cause the ecu to reset?
it happens as per the video and slightly higher rpms and also at about 1200, so 30 in 4th 50 in 5th become troublesome.. the vids show what is happening without me touching the throttle, so it should have settled.







[Edited on 13/5/15 by Chris_Xtreme]

Nice to see MSDroid being used Is it a loss of RPM or an ECU reset? Capture a log file and look at the time column to see if it resets to zero unexpectedly (although it will loop from 255, that's expected)

Regards,
Dave

been in touch with Dale over email, I'm going to get him a datalog, but I am pretty certain now a reset.

typically, just drove to work (ok only 2.1miles) in traffic and it had no problems at all ! high enough to get the electric water pump to run.

I wonder if it is heat related, the car only got to about 82 degrees. As you can see after the long motorway run it was roasting at 100ish.

If you can use tuner studio you should be able to see if the ecu loses sync. Which will help you determine if its a sensor problem or a voltage problem causing it to loose itself

Is your VR sensor really rigidly mounted? If the mounting is vibrating at certain engine speeds it's entirely likely for the MS to lose or gain tooth counts which will cause problems.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chris_Xtreme
been in touch with Dale over email, I'm going to get him a datalog, but I am pretty certain now a reset.

typically, just drove to work (ok only 2.1miles) in traffic and it had no problems at all ! high enough to get the electric water pump to run.

I wonder if it is heat related, the car only got to about 82 degrees. As you can see after the long motorway run it was roasting at 100ish.

---

more the merrier ! Dave you have mail.

Yep, the ECU reboots a couple of times in that log file. It's the second column SecL, not the first that shows it (and the markers MSDroid inserts when it happens)

cheers, Dale agrees - well and I can see it too, a second or so while the reading stops. very easy to use MSDROID

under advise from the boss man, before my trip on tuesday,( a mear 1800miles!) I am going to move the coils to earth on the block and also move the MS earths to the block too..

then just drive fast all the time!

also going to do an oil change - might try and stop some of the leaks at the front.. the valley gasket is dry, the sump is pretty dry, the end nearest the gearbox still manages to get a drip, but at the front I am sure the oil cooler pipes leak (new ones) and also around the oil pump.. I'll see how brave I am feeling and as I probably will have to take the pump off to change the filter, I'll try and seal it up some more.

coils now earthed to block.

MS now earthed to the block with 5 separate earths going there to the same point.


oil changed, filter changed, spotted one of the oil pump housing bolts was not tight - doh! still weeps a little now i've tightened it, but I think it will do rather than risking taking the oil pump off etc.

it ran in the garage till very hot etc and I could not reproduce the ecu resets.. not the same as going for a drive, but fingers crossed!

been a little while since I updated this! but alas a year ago the for mentioned tweaks did not resolve the issue of the reseting ecu.

I have now changed the VR sensor for a different one that Dale recommended, which has approx 100ohms more resistance than the one I had..

no change, when hot, it will still reset going through approx 1100rpm or some where abouts.

even if just sat idling it can after a bit reset, quick enough for it to keep going, or stall.

best get more googling done and drop Dale an email and see if he remembers me a year on!

(I reckon my bracket is pretty sturdy, but hey it could be vibrating at a specific speed to cause a problem)

Regarding the light throttle application issue...

On my setup a closed throttle registers at 58.62ADC so the bottom line on my table is at 59.
This guarantees that a closed throttle is on the bottom line.

The next line up is at 60ADC, so even the slightest application of throttle moves you up off the bottom line and moves up onto a seperate line that can be tuned.
The next line is at 65.
The throttle axis looks like this...

220
180
150
120
110
100
90
80
70
65
60
59

I should mention that I am on Alpha N algorithm.
In percents it might look like this...

100
80
60
40
30
25
20
15
10
5
1
0

Load bins close together at low openings, wider apart at higher openings.
A throttle application of 1% will get you off the bottom line.

I suspect that your second line up is at 5% or similar. ( If you are on Alpha N, that is)

[Edited on 3/5/16 by SPYDER]

[Edited on 3/5/16 by SPYDER]

thanks for the post, however, I am not touching the tune, Dale got that bang on.. I know what you mean tho, get more resolution where you need it. It is Alpha N.

going to get another log and capture the reset just to prove it is definitely a reset after switching the sensor still.

[Edited on 4/5/16 by Chris_Xtreme]

You don't say what PCB you are using or what set up your running but ecu resetting it usually a sign of a wiring problem sync loss is a different story this is a problem with your trigger setup

Hi,

using MS1 Extra V3.

It is odd, it only happens when hot.


I have only when cold, captured a tooth log, one with the alternator on and one without (just to see if the alt is putting out noise). So this isn't when the car is suffering the reset.

anyone care to take a look and see what they think, it looks a bit odd to me, like there are drops, but no drop is shown. I need to read the manual some more.


no_alternator_main_charge_lead_toothlogger2016-06-06_14.37.08.csv
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bz9O2YRN362NY3hvYzNIQmhldms/view?usp=sharing

with_alternator_toothlogger2016-06-05_17.26.50.csv
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bz9O2YRN362NemhOajdaQ2lGdGM/view?usp=sharing


thanks

well, a progress report!

I was kinda just putting up with the reset, but a couple of month a go it started getting worse, to the point of becoming not drivable- why I still don't know.

I essentially pulled every fuse that wasn't essential, ran without the wide band too and was still having the problem.

I also ran with just 4 coils, then the other 4, it would just about run on half cylinders, enough to show the reset problem.

I also pulled the plug on a coil at a time and in all situations I could get a reset.

So, I eventually got round to making a new bracket for the crank pos sensor in case it was moving / when hot flexing.

no change, but hey I had a go at welding so not all bad. didn't set fire to anything

more googling and found a msextra post where someone was having positive flyback from ls2 coils and was hearing a clicking on their alarm siren - yes I hear that too.

http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=131&t=55605#p413100




so I tried a 100uF capacitor on the main power feed to the coils. 2 of as there are 2 banks of 4 coils.

this definitely helped, no siren clicking all the time but still resets with clicks occasionally.

so i thought perhaps the capacitor isn't big enough, so I now have 4700uF ones, seemed much better again.

I tried earthing the coils (main earth) at the ms earth point on the block - loads worse, so put back to the other side.

I then decided to take the feed for the coils directly (via 1 relay) from the battery and hey presto things seem to be good. I wonder if this was a flaw in my design as if the manufacturer takes it straight from the battery and the battery is bigger it would absorb more. I now get a click as the ignition goes on, almost like the coils firing once when they get turned on and the ms goes on, but then all seems good - well running on the drive for a while anyway.

I still need to get the wiring tidied back up again so I can get it on the road again and see how it fares.

so questions!

1) any one see an issue with using a 4700uF capacitor?

2) I currently just badly have used connector blocks to get them in line and wrapped them up in wiring tape. These are just 105degree 35v maplins electrolytic capacitors, are there any better (even possibly bigger) ones that are more suited to under the bonnet application?





cheers

Chris

quote:

---

Originally posted by scudderfish

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chris_Xtreme
well, a progress report!
so I tried a 100uF capacitor on the main power feed to the coils. 2 of as there are 2 banks of 4 coils.

this definitely helped, no siren clicking all the time but still resets with clicks occasionally.

so i thought perhaps the capacitor isn't big enough, so I now have 4700uF ones, seemed much better again.

---

Aha! Rings a bell

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=129126

quote:

---

Originally posted by gremlin1234

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chris_Xtreme
well, a progress report!
so I tried a 100uF capacitor on the main power feed to the coils. 2 of as there are 2 banks of 4 coils.

this definitely helped, no siren clicking all the time but still resets with clicks occasionally.

so i thought perhaps the capacitor isn't big enough, so I now have 4700uF ones, seemed much better again.

---

I would try it with a big (ie the 4700uF), and the 100uF, and another even smaller, say about 1uF, all in parallel. the idea being the small ones act fast, the big ones more slowly.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by scudderfish
Aha! Rings a bell

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=129126

---

Just been reading PPC. Will had a similar low speed problem on his V8 Capri and Dave walker found the TPS to be not reading correctly..

Have you checked/changed the tps??

quote:

---

Originally posted by coozer
Just been reading PPC. Will had a similar low speed problem on his V8 Capri and Dave walker found the TPS to be not reading correctly..

Have you checked/changed the tps??

---

If other electrical items in the car effect the tacho (or MS?) then you have a power and ground problem.

MS must share the same 12v supply as the injectors, coil directly of ignition switch (main reason for this is to prevent engine run on)

MS grounds to block, sensor grounds to MS.

If using amplified coils like LS, these have 2 grounds, run the signal ground to the MS, power ground to the block.

Battery grounds - best big ground from battery to starter bolt, another to chassis. Another from head ti chassis, from MS ground or near it.

Alternator 12v output to starter + or battery + NOT fuse box / power distribution.

Pump relay just powers pump, no need to use this supply for anything else.

If alarm fitted best just drop supply off coils and / or pump not MS.


Hope that helps :-)

thanks Dale,

it is ridiculous, which ever way I wire it, it makes no difference.

What is odd is that it has got worse without me changing anything.

I left yours a year and a half a go, without it happening at all on the rolling road.

then it was a mild occasional reset at idle / slow rpm.

it still is at idle / low rpms but it is much more violent.

what ever is doing it I can hear it via the alarm siren (yes I have run the car with as much as possible removed and it made no difference)

next step is to completely take the alternator out, especially now that I have spotted that the dash light doesn't work all the time(wiring is fine, checked it with a direct power feed and it doesn't work some of the time)

so I'll keep you all posted once I have done that!

I will get to the bottom of this, I will... !

well, alternator is on it's way to the place I got it from for review.

I have run the car with out the alt in for about 30mins on the drive, not a single bit of noise to be heard through the alarm siren (no caps added to the coils) and no resets. car got completely hot, fan kicked in etc etc, restarted it still no resets.

I really hope it is the alternator and I am kicking myself for not taking it completely out of the equation before as part of my testing!

here's hoping.

Only real way to check an alternator for ripple is to connect an oscilloscope on the output voltage, but you can use the diode test setting and also the AC voltage setting on a DVOM to give you some idea.

If I dare tempt fate it is looking possible that the alternator could be the culprit.

Aparantly a dodgy diode making the dash light not work all the time and perhaps crucially iirc 1 of the phases was off, creating noise.

Here's hoping. I should get it back by the end of the week.

Somewhere in the conversation heat was mentioned! Don't know what I'm gonna do about that!

quote:

---

Aparantly a dodgy diode making the dash light not work all the time and perhaps crucially iirc 1 of the phases was off, creating noise.

---

Where is your alternator mounted? I don't recall seeing it in the standard Rover position.

Regards,
Dave

if you can make it out from these -- not much room!

Ah, same place as mine. I can't see why heat would be a problem there, below and in front of the exhaust manifolds and probably cold air coming in from the underside. Does your alt have a small fan behind the pulley?

No fan, it is one of those little denso ones.

It is pretty close to an exhaust pipe, so I can only think to put a shield of some sort between it and the exhaust.

so alternator back, I thought all was good, a bit of noise still from when the fan kicks in, but no resets,.

went for a spin round the block, all seemed good.

next day went for a longer drive, some traffic jam, cut out once or twice... was it just me not putting my foot down enough - not sure, got to the destination car park and it had a fit of stalling whilst parking up, got home again and it reset over and over on the drive.

I need to get tunerstudio back on to log it to make sure it is resets again and go through all my tests once more to see what could be causing it now!

took the control wire off the o2 sensor in case that was being dodgy (ive seen the AFR bounce a bit too much for my liking) need to turn the EGO adjust off in case it is just being bonkers and causing a stall really. Also going to swap the fan as I have another just in case.

it perhaps is no better with a fixed alternator !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! arg!!!!!!!!!!

so frustrating that with changing nothing is has got so much worse than it was when I drove it to France a year and a half ago.

must keep going -- in a way glad my 2 little kids leave me no time to be wanting to drive it each weekend!

I doubt that my recent experience is of help but I'll mention it anyway.

I was struggling with poor running at low revs on my MS1 V3 and when I ran the tooth logging I could see dropouts or double missing teeth. When opening the case to adjust the VR pots the problem went away. So I re-assemble it and the problem re-appeared. The coil drivers were mounted to the inside of the case lid and it appeared that the wires to them were interfering with the VR circuitry so I ended up rerouting the wires to ensure they stayed clear of the VR pots area of the PCB. So far it has been fine since.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jed
I doubt that my recent experience is of help but I'll mention it anyway.

I was struggling with poor running at low revs on my MS1 V3 and when I ran the tooth logging I could see dropouts or double missing teeth. When opening the case to adjust the VR pots the problem went away. So I re-assemble it and the problem re-appeared. The coil drivers were mounted to the inside of the case lid and it appeared that the wires to them were interfering with the VR circuitry so I ended up rerouting the wires to ensure they stayed clear of the VR pots area of the PCB. So far it has been fine since.

---

So,

def not the alternator at fault,

I have since tried running all sorts off a different battery, eg fan, water pump (and just had them running non stop) fuel pumps, coils any thing I can think of that could bring some noise to the party... can't get rid of the problem.

I have now read and thought that, esp as it happens moreso when hot - and the bonnet is on that is could be the TPS signal, so I am going to try some shielded wire on this.

Can someone recommend a 3 core, plus shield wire to use, that has a high, I would say 100degC plus rating?

make and model please


cheers, Chris

https://www.rapidonline.com/alpha-wire-2461c-sl005-data-transmission-cable-22awg-2-core-30-5m-reel-02-0881

i use this, 2 core and use screen for 0v

nice one Dale, I saw another post where you had said something about using the screen as 0 / earth.. I'll give it a go, who knows it might be the cause of my problems! The wires could have degraded over time, they do run close to the coils presently and are fora while on top of the rocker cover and a water pipe etc...

I'm going to take it to from the tps, to the front of the car and then across and down the side under the exhausts, so it will be near the crank sensor, but as that is shielded with this wire that we did when I was with you, hopefully they will both be fine!

cheers, Chris

I used this

http://www.polevolt.co.uk/acatalog/Screened_Cables.html

Ref: SCN0.5/3

with 3 core, do you then just earth the shied to something near the tps and don't earth it at the MS end?

if you using 3 core plus screen then best just earth at MS end

If using 2 core plus screen then use the screen and the 0v for the TPS, and connect to the sensor ground at MS

:-)

If it looks like its TPS noise causing your issue (could be) you could remove the TPS off the throttle body, with its cable still connected and move out of engine bay completely. The engine will still start and idle (if you dont touch throttle). Then see if the reset/stumble happens.

cheers, I'll see which cable is the most cost effective and can cope with heat the best.

smart idea about taking the tps off - If I can get the wires out of the loom tube I can try that now... so much unravelling! but it could be degraded wires so I may just spend the money and do the effort once... I'll see

thanks for the input.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chris_Xtreme
cheers, I'll see which cable is the most cost effective and can cope with heat the best.

smart idea about taking the tps off - If I can get the wires out of the loom tube I can try that now... so much unravelling! but it could be degraded wires so I may just spend the money and do the effort once... I'll see

thanks for the input.

---

"I know i have asked you this one, sorry, but are you sure you have all 3 wires for the TPS going directly back to the ECU - the 0v is straight onto the 37w connector?"

Yes all three are back to the MS.


I have swapped the cable to 2 core + sheild and rerouted round the front of the car, so less heat and noise.. no change what so ever.. I am stumped!

The MS seems to start resetting once it has got through the warm up cycle, everytime..

I measured the temp of the voltage regulators and or everything along the heat sink part and nothing was odd, it was freezing outside too. (using a temperature gun with lazer pointer on it) nothing on the MS board seemed to get warm.


Could this be a software issue ? or a chip issue?

cheers all and Happy New Year!

Chris

Well, I can't really believe this happened but I sold the car.

A Xtreme builder of 13yrs ago tracked the car down and even with it's issue wanted it.

It all happened really quickly, and I decided to not think about it, but think about the fact that I have had no time to try and fix it myself and whilst the kids are little no holidays where I can get it anywhere to be looked at by an expert.

so that is that.

Dale especially and all, thank you for your help over the years in trying to fix this issue!

I managed to get what I wanted which was my conversion to EFI done and go on the SKCC trip to france (back in May 2015!) where it drove great (minor hiccups)

My last proper drive in it was to Stonleigh last year on the Sunday where I parked it on the Quantum stand.

I'm not going anywhere, not that I was a frantic poster anyway! but I'll keep lurking!

Do you want to buy mine?