OK

some of you may have read already that i broke down this evening trying to get to Newark....

Now been recovered home and am trying to work out what went wrong!

was driving absolutely fine for 25 miles then seemed to lose all powerand then died. had a looka nd could see nothing untoward so tried again(car had abotu 5 mins rest) and seemed to be ok again... drove about 1-2 miles and it happened again. again let it rest a few mins then tried again and got a few hunderd yards.. did that a coupe more times til i could stop somewhere safe off the dual carriageway and call recovery..

anyway.. looking for clues where to start looking? I am thinking possibly fuel supply problem but then why would letting it rest for a few mins help?

Just reaslly peed off now

Has your car been on the road before? Is your tank vented in any way? If not could you be creating a partial vacuum (if thats possible?) in the tank and it needs a few minutes to correct. Just an idea.

tbs are pretty much as per the original bike installation. I popped the filter socks off and couldn't see snything untoward..

I am running a zetec had similar problems as did a mate the fuel filter was clogged due to debris in the tank, cleaned it ot runs fine now

It does sound like fuel starvation, does your tank have a breather or could there be crap in the pump?




on a side note i'm running a pinto and about to go to gsxr750 TB's, what does your injection set up look like i.e. swirl pot? original bike pump? do you have a return line etc...

how long have you been running the car my problem started after 3000 miles the brotherin ln laws after abot 5k.
What managerment system r u using ? this may also have a bearing on the problem

only 300 miles

running megasquirt n spark extra

Fuel tank vacuum sounds favourite - go on a run, wait until it dies, then rush out and undo the filler cap. If you hear a loud whoosh of air then you need to sort out your tank venting.

If you don't hear a whoosh - I'd think about something getting too hot...

Have you checked for a spark when it wont run? does the fuel pump run when first switched on and does the injector priming pulse occur ? it is usually possible to hear a click from the injectors after about 2 secs depending on how it is set up.Are you running coildrivers in the ecu or an Edis unit?.
Paul.

quote:

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Originally posted by David Jenkins
Fuel tank vacuum sounds favourite - go on a run, wait until it dies, then rush out and undo the filler cap. If you hear a loud whoosh of air then you need to sort out your tank venting.

If you don't hear a whoosh - I'd think about something getting too hot...

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I would say check your filters too. Your tank may have contained swarf when it was manufactured and blocked the filter. Something like this happened to me. My filter had bits of metal in it, unfortunatly i had put the filter after my pump so my pump was knackered too! Though I easily got another pump for cheap of ebay and i havent had any problems since re situating the filter before the fuel pump!!

Hopefully will give you something to look for if your problem continues!

i have one of those clear lp filters before my lp pump and that looks ok so i'm guessing that my filters should be ok...

going to take it out for a run this morning and then check after 15 miles or so by removing the filler cap... Daves/Mykes idea about the tank vent just seems to fit....

now i think about it, the other day i was out and the wife was driving, had a similar loss of power but i put it down to her.... but we were low on petrol and the gauge had packed in so i thought it might be out of petrol ... we stopped for about 10 mins then dorve to the nearest garage where of course i opened the filler cap to fill up. it then drove fine the 20 miles home....

my tank vent is very small diameter pipe which i suppose could have gotten blocked easily.. and the 2 way valve is off the sierra filler tube so could also be playing up....

Just wish i had thought to try it last night...

Well I set out this morning and left the fuel fuller cap off. Car purred like a kitten all the way to Newark!
Thanks for your help!

Looks like the next job is to sort out the venting!

Good result!

Well i guess it wasnt the tank vent after all!

after a perfect run up in the rain yesterday, i set off home this morning and made it 20 miles!

exactly the same problem. tried all sorts today...

removed the sock filters, got about another mile

rewired the injectors - another mile
checked cool and rad - another mile

found a wire on the alt broken (probably broke it at last stop taking nose off)... another mile

thought it might be crank case pressure so cut the pipe to the catch tank.. it then ran for 30 miles and i thought i had cracked it

let it rest for 5 mins and got a couple more miles then gave up and called recovery

next step is to park it up and throw a zippo at it

to cap it all swmbo isnt talking to me because i was supposed to be home this morning

I had a really similar problem to you a while back.

Car would run for ages and then the swirl pot would run dry. I assume that you have a swirl pot since you said lp pump.

After leaving the car for a while and re-priming the pot by turning the ignition on and off it was then ok.

I cured it by removing the lp pump pre filter.

My pump was one of those facet pumps with a filter built into the feed pipe so I had over filtered the lp pump and I also had no back pressure on the outlet of the pump so it knocked a lot.
I took the extra filter off and the car ran great after that.

In the end I ditched the swirl pot, had one welded onto the bottom of the tank (thanks locor1) and now just have a hp pump and pre and post filters.

Paul.

I would say that sounds promising except.... why did it run fine for 150 miles on saturday? the only difference I can see is that it was raining and therefore cooler...

I know what you mean but I was on my way to Ashby Folville (40 miles) and it stopped about 3 miles from Ashby then on the way home it did it about 5 miles from home and I could only do about 20 mph so limped home. I had me foxed for a while.

You might not have the same problem but I'd have a look at the fuel supply.

The worst bit was that it didn't do it straight away when I set off

V frustrating

Paul.

it does sound exactly like my problem.... it's just the fact that it worked on saturday that is foxing me!

I am thinking fuel vaporisation... will get a decent fuel Px reg (with a gauge so i can see what is happening) and change the fule rail to a flow through rather than a dead end type...

Also add some bonnet venting and add a scoop to get more air to the TB intakes....

see how that goes for now!

anyone know the best place for a FP reg with gauge?

I bought one of these. price seemed reasonable. (at least i have not found any cheaper).

http://ashorterlink.com/2756


please note: I am in the process of installing it, and cannot vouch for the accuracy of the gauge. I did adjust it to 3 bar by using compressed air. Hopefully I will have it regulating petrol later this week.

Pieter

Dave
Are you using a Tiger fuel tank?
If so they were renown for being full of crap and blocking in line filters.
Also what filler are you using?
The Tiger supplied filler cap is vented and the pipe from the tank goes to the flange but you can't use this flange with an aftermarket cap as the cap itself will not be vented.
Hope some of this helps.

Nope

tank was made by Deneo and is great.. I made sure it was fully cleaned out before use.

I have an LP filter before the LP pump to the swirl pot and that is a clear type so I can se the fuel and filter in there- both look fine...

I am currently thinking that my design of HP system at the TBs is to blame..

The GSXR fuel rail is a dead end type so I put a T union int the feed to the fuel rail and connected that to the pressure regulator from the EFi donor and on to the return to the tank...

I am in the process of changing that arrangement so the fule rail is a flow through type ending in an adjustable regulator with a gauge so I can see what is going on better. I figure this should give a flow of petrol through the rail which will help keep the fuel cooler? and probably keep the pressure better regulated.
I am also adding some bonnet vents to reduce the underbonnet temperature.

Just have to see how I get on!

cheers

Hi Dave,

Can you do a data log of the car using Megatune?.....just keep logging until the car conks out and see what the AFR is doing, the fuel supply stopping with show your afr going lean followed by the engine rpm dying...

That would be the first step......

What fuel pump arrangment do you have with the single ended rail?......if you have a non return system but a normal pump, the pump could be getting over loaded and cutting out........

Other thoughts.......

As soon as it cuts out, pull a plug and check for spark or, if you have MS extra, then you can run the spark and injector test to see if you have spark and fuel.........

Does the car pop / bang / stutter / before conking?....

As soon as it conks, what happens when you turn the key?...does the fuel pump turn as per normal to prime the system?.....

It does sound like fuel, but I would certainly not discount a wiring problem when hot. This is why doing a datalog will be realy helpful...if MS is loosing power for example, this will also show as all the log results will go to zero.....

I'm running a swirl pot set up (so has a return), and using the same pressure regulator as Corpi posted, so far no problems.....

I have the following setup

a facet lp pump fed via a lp filter going to a seperate swirl pot which then feeds the original sierra HP pump which feeds the HP filter in the engine bay whcich then feeds the fuel rail but has a T peice in the line which feeds the Px reg which has a return line to the swirl pot in the rear.

when it looses power it is really weird... seems to riun on 3 cylinders sometimes and also smells like it is running really rich.. but that may be because I have the throttle burried trying to keep it going! kept going for about 4 miles the other day @ 40mph along the hard shoulder trying to get off the motorway to somewhere safe.... thing is I know that when it has sat for 15 mins it will run again fine for a few more miles....

I haven't read back through the entire thread, so apologies if this has been mentioned before........

Could it be the injectors are being overcome by too much fuel pressure?......so, can you check the pressure to the fuel rail?.....By stopping the car the system pressure could have time to de pressureise it's self, hence everything back to normal....

Are you 100% sure the pressure reg is up to the job?......and it really is regulating the o/p pressure to the rail?...........


When you finally stop, can you smell petrol...could be worth checking for any leaks, and therefore a reduction in fuel pressure should for example a clip on a fuel line be overloaded. Are all high pressure fuel lines 'high pressure'?.

Apologies if I'm asking the obvious, and you have infact checked all of the above......

I'm still not discounting the spark though - Again, no spark, no ignition so fuel will just slosh about in the combustion chamberand be shot out of the exhaust valves...hence the strong smell....

Next time it happens, sniff the exhaust, and pull a plug to see if it's flooded......

Ditto the questions on the logging......

I did wonder if it was to much pressure in the fuel rail but it doesn't explain why it ran perfectly in the rain?

Also using a zetec coil pack which could possibly be suspect?

all HP hose and proper clips, no leaks evident.

Another thought on the single feed rail...I'm assuming that the fuel rail is the highest point in the fuel system.....Could this mean that any air sucked though the system (say on a hard corner, or even through bubbles), could potentially build up in the rail, and eventyally work down to the first injector?.....

Now then, are you going to answer the datalog question or not ;-)

Unfortunately my lsptop was dead by the time it broke down on the way back from newark so didn't have the opportunity to do another datalog...

Currently the HP fuel system is stripped down in my garage and i am awaitng delivery of my new regulator..

I may possibly have a datalog from last friday when it first broke down. will have a look and see what I can find...

cheers

[Edited on 27-6-08 by DaveFJ]

First Jenko any chance of reducing the size of your avitar?

If you are using a Sierra HP fuel pump it is hardly likely to give too much pressure, more like too low.

Opps...didn't realise everyone viewed it that big!!!....

Had similar symptoms when I first got my car running on injection although not intermittant . TPS was faulty. Might be worth changing? Best of luck

OK have some logs if anyone is interested...

this one is from one of my numerous short runs ending in a breakdown on the friday....

and from the saturday when it was running well - no changes to system - just running in the rain.....

(I have had to crop the first half of this file so i could upload it)

[Edited on 3-7-08 by DaveFJ]

and - in case you want it - my current msq file

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the files....

OK, on the problematic log can you explain what is happening as you are driving....So, at what point does the engine start misbehaving?.......I notice a sudden dip in rpm at time mark 733.93...is this where the engine looses power?.....

Anyway, A quick look shows something strange......On the attached file, Ive plotted rpm and tps towards the end of the run. I'm guessing this was just before breakdown. Anyway, you can see that around about point 735, the throttle poition is 0 and the engine dips, then recovers....

I would question how an engines revs could rise back up with 0 throttle?????........

Now then, if this really is a point where you were seeing trouble then either one of two things is happening....

Either the Crankposition sensor is mis reading your RPM, or your TPS is faulty....At the moment my vote goes for the TPS. But will need to do some more analysis.

Of course if the TPS is not reading correctly, then with no load, the engine will be trying to use the wrong line in the VE and ignition table (although ignition should not make that much difference)....
Paul.

[Edited on 3/7/08 by Jenko]

not sure exactly what was happening at that moment unfortunately...

When it starts to go wrong it does sometimes appear to be running on 3 cylinders.. although that could just be my misinterpretation of the noises...

What I found interesting is the way the AFR closely follows the TP and RPM until it starts to go wrong at which point the AFR goes mental...

I have checked and cleaned connections on both TP and crank sensor. also tried 'wiggling' both whilst the engine was playing up to see if i could detect a difference in the engine running - found nothing....

typically the symptoms start with a complete lack of acceleration and then start to slow. engine sounds rough as hell and has very occasionally backfired. you can see from the logs me 'blipping' the throttle trying to get some response out of it.

At one stage on the sunday i drove for about 10 miles on the hard shoulder at 40mph in 5th gear with WOT! it kept going just long enough but got me to safety off the A1M....

If I tryu and restart straight away the problem is still there. if I 'fiddle' for a few minutes and then try again the car will run for a few more miles.... which implies to me either cooling or a build up of pressure/vacuum ?

The engine does run a little hot but I think the readings in the log are a little off... need to recalibrate the sensor again as it read 100 degrees whilst the seperate (matched) gauge/sensor reads about 87!

just had another look at that log

you can see that at about 706 s the rpm starts to drop off and I start to react about half a second later starting to increase throttle to compensate which fails to help....

At that poing the AFR goes through the roof...
looking at the ve table the difference in the bins is small (going from 128 to 130).

when the afr drops back down the revs start to pick up again (between 712 and 726) but as you can see the tps stays pretty stable.
I then blip the throttle and seem to kill it! there is a corresponding crash in the map at the same time as the throttle goes to zero @ 732 s which i find odd as the rpm only drops off 2 seconds later?

I'm probably talking twaddle but all that made me think it was fule supply issues.. hence I have now re-worked my HP system so the fule rail flows through and I have an adjustable regulator with a gauge which is set to 3 bar....

I now need to get it out and adjust the tuning for the new fuel pressure and then do a >20mile run to see what happens!

cheers

quote:

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Originally posted by Jenko
I would question how an engines revs could rise back up with 0 throttle?????........
[Edited on 3/7/08 by Jenko]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doofus

quote:

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Originally posted by Jenko
I would question how an engines revs could rise back up with 0 throttle?????........
[Edited on 3/7/08 by Jenko]

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Dave took his foot off the clutch?
just a thought.

Paul.

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Dave I'm not too hot with the data log which is the AFR (O2?) if so what values do you expect to see. Also what are ports a,b,c&d as there are some odd (read inconsistant) values coming up in there

Dave
I've just loaded your map into Megatune 2.25 and your spark and fuel tables do not appear to have any load values against them.

quote:

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Originally posted by Schrodinger
Dave
I've just loaded your map into Megatune 2.25 and your spark and fuel tables do not appear to have any load values against them.

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well, I took the car out today on it's first decent lebgth run since the problems. I didn't even get off the drive to start with because an injector was spraying fuel everywhere..... O ring had split so a quick trip to Halfrauds was required.

that sorted and I was away. The engine ran well for the entire 58 miles Still not convinced that the problem is solved but I have a little more faith now.
I did find a bit of an oil lake under the bonnet but that was due to the breather tank overflowing

I took a datalog of the journey so will try to make that available later on.. I have found I needed to adjust the VE map by -3 across the board to cope with the now stable 3 bar fuel pressure.

Here is the log from sunday and the msq it was running...

All seems well :-)

Obviously time will tell, but I wonder if that O ring could have been allowing air into the system or allow fuel out?....

I think i probably dmaged it re-asembling the fuel rail after the rebuild..

cheers for your help