paulf
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| posted on 6/11/10 at 10:12 AM |
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I dont think the dry film type products will do the job you require and was under the impression that manufacturers used it as a means of stopping
dirt from building up on the butterfly.My gsxr butterflys barely show a gap when held up to the light and if you are intending to use an idle valve
then they need to be fully closed.I would try and make them slightly oversize and hand fit them if necessary using engineers blue and a scraper.
Paul
quote:
Originally posted by RazMan
I reckon mine should be a lot closer than that, although I agree that with a smaller engine (only 2.5L) they will have to be better than my earlier
effort. The original butterflies actually fit quite well and once the slight taper is removed from the bores, I stand a better chance of achieving a
good seal. As a last resort I will find some suitable sealant like the Moly dry film lubricant to close the gaps a little more.
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Badger_McLetcher
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| posted on 6/11/10 at 01:26 PM |
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This is a very interesting project, in the proper spirit of locosting 
Though the parts require fine precision, it seems this should be within your means.
If disfunction is a function, then I must be some kind of genius.
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RazMan
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| posted on 7/11/10 at 12:44 PM |
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After some discussion in another thread I have decided that an Idle Control Valve will just complicate things and I will hopefully control the
tickover with some timing control with the ecu - cold starting might be a challenge but again the ecu has adjustments which can compensate here too.
I have vacuum feeds from each of the primary bores so at least I can use these to control the fuel regulator after joining them in a mini plenum.
[Edited on 7-11-10 by RazMan]
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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RazMan
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| posted on 10/11/10 at 05:26 PM |
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I've been busy this week! My new best friend in Taiwan has been very helpful and made a prototype of my trumpet design.
Due to machining size limitations (and to keep cost down) we decided to make a 'layered' construction from billets that were already in
stock. Quite unique I think you will agree 
Here are the four layers ..... 6mm Baseplate, 2 x 32mm funnel sections and a 9mm flared bell
 
Components
...... which stack together making the complete multi-layer trumpets. The whole assembly is held together with four vertical bolts and a lick of
gasket compound. Internally it looks very smooth as far as gasflow is concerned - the 'stepping' is purely external and was done for faster
machining time
 
Sand blasted
VOILA! 80mm trumpets done the Locost way
The new butterflies have now been re-made and they fit much better than the previous attempt - I'm off to the platers tomorrow to get them ready
for assembly next week.
[Edited on 10-11-10 by RazMan]
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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MikeR
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| posted on 10/11/10 at 06:35 PM |
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wow - how much did that cost?
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 10/11/10 at 11:10 PM |
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Very neat, some hours have been put into that! One thing I meant to ask - how will you balance airflow through the individual throttles?
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RazMan
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| posted on 10/11/10 at 11:29 PM |
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I can't comment on the pricing .... yet, but lets just say if I was to get it machined in the UK it was going to cost SIX TIMES as much 
Honestly, while I can appreciate that UK machine shops have overheads it really doesn't make any sense that I can go to Taiwan and get such
great prices AND they did the CNC design from a very basic DXF file that I knocked up - a real no brainer.
As far as syncing the airflow goes I am banking on the fact that they are all exactly machined and mounted on common shafts which *should* mean that
they will be fairly close. Having said that, I have the option to install needle valves in each bore if things are too rough.
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 12/11/10 at 02:30 PM |
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Who's your friend in Taiwan? I'm sure plenty of people could send him more work.
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RazMan
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| posted on 20/11/10 at 01:30 PM |
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I actually meant Thailand and he is a supplier of all sorts of go faster goodies for mostly motorbikes.
A little bit more progress this week - I have now remade the butterflies and the seal is much better, but after doing some research I decided to make
it even better by applying a little Molykote dry film lubricant to the mating surfaces. Apparently manufacturers such as Honda, Suburu and even Jaguar
use this compound for the same reasons and this often gets removed unintentionally during cleaning or modifying the TB, with a bad idle as a result.
Basically it is 'floated' into the tiny gap between the butterfly and throttle body, capilliary action holding the compound in place while
it cures. The result is a PERFECT seal which means I might be able to use an idle control valve if I choose now.
Here's a shot of the seal
 
Description
[Edited on 20-11-10 by RazMan]
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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bimbleuk
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| posted on 20/11/10 at 03:40 PM |
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Doesn't surprise me about the cheaper manufacturing in Thai/Malay. I bought a tapered plenum with internal trumpets from a seller on Ebay. Bit
of a leap of faith at the time but the cost was at least half of an equivalent plenum fabricated over here plus it was cast which makes for a much
stronger design. Arrived in 4 days from the order which I was impressed by and served me well for a few years. Unfortunately he cottoned on about
pricing and the plenums have gone up considerably since.
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 20/11/10 at 10:48 PM |
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Looking good. When are you going to be in a position to start the engine up with these installed?
Exciting times. Are you planning on going to "Product" with the layer cake approach, or is the long term plan a solid lump? Personally I
think a solid lump would extract more money from my pocket than the sandwich. Just interested.
Matt
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RazMan
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| posted on 20/11/10 at 11:11 PM |
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I am hoping to get a revised version of the trumpets next week. The profile of the flared end has been changed to make them look more conventional and
also improve the airflow a little more. Once I have got the prototype in my hot little hands I will bung it on my engine and start mapping it straight
away. I guess a trip to the rollers is the only thing that will prove its effectiveness but I will certainly use my 'butt dyno' while
mapping on the road.
The 'layer cake' idea was originally thought up as a way to prototype the design but if it works well I might even call it a feature.
It will certainly reduce the cost of the kit (which I hope to be able to offer at a very competitive price btw  ) and if airflow isn't
compromised I see no reason to make the kit more expensive. I am hoping that it will fit under the bonnet of a standard Mondeo / Cougar without any
mods to the bonnet, which might please some of the Ford V6 boys out there who are looking for a few extra horses. If all goes to plan I will offer the
kit on an exchange basis, taking a standard LIM and supplying a new, reworked version + fitting kit back to the customer.
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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RazMan
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| posted on 1/12/10 at 11:55 PM |
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Update time:
At the third attempt I have finally got the butterflies to fit nicely and with a tiny adjustment to the timing it is rock steady at 850rpm with an AFR
of 13.5 so I am a happy chappy. Apparently a lot of 'proper' ITBs have idle issues so I am quite happy with the results, considering
I've got twelve of the little blighters - and the sound of a V6 on ITBs is really nice I have yet to receive the trumpets which should be
here any day now, so it looks like my cunning plan is finally starting to work now!
I will post some pics when I get the trumpets ....
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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RazMan
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| posted on 6/12/10 at 05:35 PM |
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The prototypes have arrived - yay! I was pleasantly surprised to find that they fit the LIM perfectly and only the finish is not quite as
'finished' as I would like - not bad for a first attempt though.
 
Trumpet Prototype
Here is a closeup showing more detail - the finished version will be polished and anodised in a choice of colours. 
 
Trumpet Prototype
They certainly look the part and I can't wait to take her out on the road to see how they perform. Judging from the AFR gauge (wideband) the
engine is running quite a lot weaker due to the extra airflow so I have tweaked the map to get things ticking over nicely at 850rpm (didn't
expect it to be that good!) and further mapping will be done when I can take her out for a spin. The sound of a revving V6 is quite intoxicating and
the trumpets have really made everything more responsive and 'angry' sounding grrrrrr
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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Xtreme Kermit
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| posted on 6/12/10 at 05:51 PM |
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Looking good!
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RazMan
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 03:30 PM |
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Just a little update as I have been very busy lately and haven't had time to work on the car.
I got a couple of foam air filters from Ram Air and after some modding they fitted a treat. First I had to make some baseplates with all of the holes
in all the right places - measure twice, cut once etc
 
Base Plates
The tops of the trumpets are sandwiched into the 'layer cake' design and I'm really chuffed with the result. Then the filters
themselves go on top.
 
Foam Filters
After some initial 'challenges' with the butterflies letting too much air past, I managed to get the engine running quite well and ready for
some mapping on the road. The tickover is still a bit high (1200rpm) but I can live with that for the time being.
The first thing I noticed when opening the throttle on the road was the increase in induction roar - what a glorious noise! It has now got a kind of
shrill harmonic more akin to a bike engine. I put this down to the fact it is now breathing through 12 small trumpets so the smaller apertures play
higher 'notes'. Combined with the deeper, slightly unbalanced burble of the exhaust note it really sounds gorgeous and the whole project was
worth it just for that noise
The mapping took me 3 tank fulls of 97RON to get close to how I want it, but I am sure a 'proper' mapping session will get it even better.
However it is fine for me right now and I continue to tweak the map every time I go out in the car (quite often now the weather is getting better)
Performance wise I am quite impressed with the power delivery. It seems to be much more responsive, especially in the lower half of the revs, and
really gets a move on at the top end too - with a really lovely howl which is quite addictive Can't wait to see what power it is producing but
my 'butt dyno' says it is quite a lot more than stock now.
More to follow later
[Edited on 26-3-11 by RazMan]
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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Yazza54
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 03:52 PM |
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Trumpet porn
I'm unhappy cos I eat and I eat cos I'm unhappy
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Xtreme Kermit
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 07:17 PM |
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 07:48 PM |
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Nice.
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 07:48 PM |
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Nice.
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Yazza54
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 08:09 PM |
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Whats the car?
I'm unhappy cos I eat and I eat cos I'm unhappy
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RazMan
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 09:56 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Yazza54
Whats the car?
.jpg)
It's still my Aeon GT2 - 5 years on the road now but I just can't stop fiddlin' wiv it
[Edited on 26-3-11 by RazMan]
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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