ak
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| posted on 16/4/20 at 10:03 PM |
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Microsquirt & EDIS - PIP and SAW signals
Hi All,
My first post on this forum! Been building a Tiger Avon for 10 years on and off (mostly off, due to working abroad). Lockdown has given me time to
make some serious progress. But inevitably I've now run into problems I'm having trouble solving! Hope you guys can help 
I'm running a 2.0L Zetec Blacktop (w/ standard flywheel from the 1.8), MicroSquirt, EDIS, GSXR1000 Throttle Bodies.
Finally got it started, but suspect it was in limp home mode since Ignition Advance remained at 10deg on the TunerStudio gauge view. Also, during dry
cranking tests with a timing light, the ignition advance appeared fixed at 10deg on the crank, and changing the Cranking Advance option didn't
seem to do anything. I understand if EDIS is operating in limp-home mode, it means it is not getting a valid SAW signal.
So, this leads me to a number of questions:
1) Should MS be producing a SAW signal during dry cranking (spark plugs out, spark produced)? I don’t seem to get the nice regular +5V square wave I’m
expecting.
2) Should adjusting the Cranking Advance option have a visible effect on the timing marks during dry cranking with a timing light?
3) I’ve put a scope on the VR and PIP signals during dry cranking (plugs out, spark produced). Could someone advise if the traces shown below seem
sensible? I was expecting PIP to be 0V to +12V square wave, but it seems to be -10V to +10V and not quite square... (see VR and PIP traces below).
VR:
 
VR_signal
PIP:
 
PIP_signal
Does anyone have any real examples of VR/PIP signals in a similar setup?
4) VR cable shielding - should the shielding be earthed or left 'loose' and insulated at both ends?
5) I have some base maps for a Zetec that I think were created using SpeedDensity algorithm. Does this mean that they are not suitable for Alpha-N?
My intention was to just run the GSXR1000 throttle bodies with only Alpha-N and no MAP sensor - is this recommended or not?
Any assistance is greatly appreciated!
[Edited on 16/4/20 by ak]
[Edited on 16/4/20 by ak]
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Tiger Avon - 2.0L Blacktop Zetec - GSXR1000 TBs - Microsquirt V3
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snapper
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| posted on 17/4/20 at 05:02 AM |
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There are very specific earthing instructions for the sensor wire earthing which should go to the EDIS end, if you can’t find the Megasquirt
instructions look at Megajolt website
I eat to survive
I drink to forget
I breath to pi55 my ex wife off (and now my ex partner)
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theduck
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| posted on 17/4/20 at 09:55 AM |
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Bin the edis and drive the coil directly!
You'll need a VAG logic coil, but they are cheap and much better than running edis.
Shielding should be earthed at the microsquirt end and loose at the sensor end.
I can sort a start up map for you when you get to that point
[Edited on 17/4/20 by theduck]
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paulf
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| posted on 17/4/20 at 12:46 PM |
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If it is running then it is getting the pip signal from the edis ,is it showing a variation on the map when revved? if not then it may not have the
firmware or base settings set correctly, it needs to be set for ms and edis settings with correct firmware loaded ,if set as a basic coil input then
the edis will still give it the signal to fire the injectors but wont control spark advance, i ran my car with separate ignition management like this
at one time.
As already mentioned shielded cables should always be earthed at one end only and on the edis set up it should be at the edis plug end, there is a
common earth point there.
I tried to run speed density maps with limited success and now run on alpha N and found it much easier to get a smooth map.
Paul.
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ak
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| posted on 17/4/20 at 01:54 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by snapper
There are very specific earthing instructions for the sensor wire earthing which should go to the EDIS end, if you can’t find the Megasquirt
instructions look at Megajolt website
So in terms of earths, I have the following:
EDIS pin 9 --> engine block
MS ECU pins 22 (pwr gnd), 23 (pwr gnd), 31 (OPTO-) each individually --> engine block
Engine block --> Chassis --> Battery -ve
VR shield --> MS ECU pin 18 (sensor ground)
I believe this is correct from the manuals?
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Tiger Avon - 2.0L Blacktop Zetec - GSXR1000 TBs - Microsquirt V3
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ak
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| posted on 17/4/20 at 01:58 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by theduck
Bin the edis and drive the coil directly!
A few people have recommended this now, but I want to keep this as a last resort. Many others have got EDIS and Microsquirt working on a blacktop
Zetec, so I'd like to think I'm pretty close now.
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Tiger Avon - 2.0L Blacktop Zetec - GSXR1000 TBs - Microsquirt V3
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ak
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| posted on 17/4/20 at 02:13 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by paulf
If it is running then it is getting the pip signal from the edis ,is it showing a variation on the map when revved? if not then it may not have the
firmware or base settings set correctly, it needs to be set for ms and edis settings with correct firmware loaded ,if set as a basic coil input then
the edis will still give it the signal to fire the injectors but wont control spark advance, i ran my car with separate ignition management like this
at one time.
As already mentioned shielded cables should always be earthed at one end only and on the edis set up it should be at the edis plug end, there is a
common earth point there.
I tried to run speed density maps with limited success and now run on alpha N and found it much easier to get a smooth map.
Paul.
Any chance I could get that Alpha-N map off you?
I'll have to check the live map when I get it started again (waiting on some parts to fix a coolant leak). So far only had it running around
idle, so will try increasing RPM and see what that does to the advance.
Ignition options are as per the manual for EDIS setup:
Spark mode = EDIS
Trigger offset = 0 deg
Ignition Input Capture = Rising Edge
Cranking Trigger = Calculated
Spark Output = Going High (inverted)
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Tiger Avon - 2.0L Blacktop Zetec - GSXR1000 TBs - Microsquirt V3
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theduck
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| posted on 17/4/20 at 03:23 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ak
quote:
Originally posted by theduck
Bin the edis and drive the coil directly!
A few people have recommended this now, but I want to keep this as a last resort. Many others have got EDIS and Microsquirt working on a blacktop
Zetec, so I'd like to think I'm pretty close now.
It will work, but it's still a crappy solution, especially when a much better and simpler one is available.
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ak
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| posted on 17/4/20 at 04:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by theduck
quote:
Originally posted by ak
quote:
Originally posted by theduck
Bin the edis and drive the coil directly!
A few people have recommended this now, but I want to keep this as a last resort. Many others have got EDIS and Microsquirt working on a blacktop
Zetec, so I'd like to think I'm pretty close now.
It will work, but it's still a crappy solution, especially when a much better and simpler one is available.
So we're talking something like this?:
[img]
 
Description
[/img]
(extract from MicroSquirt Hardware manual)
Using existing HT leads / VR sensor / trigger wheel and running it as wasted spark?
And then wiring as follows:
VR sensor wires directly into Microsquirt VR+/- (pins 32 and 33)
Microsquirt IGN1 and IGN2 (pins 12 and 11) to the logic coil?
If it's as simple as that, I'm very quickly being convinced!...
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Tiger Avon - 2.0L Blacktop Zetec - GSXR1000 TBs - Microsquirt V3
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theduck
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| posted on 17/4/20 at 04:07 PM |
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Yep. That and an ignition switched 12v to the coil and a ground iirc.
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ak
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| posted on 19/4/20 at 01:24 PM |
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Well, I wish I followed advice and did this earlier! Bought the Golf mk4 1.6L coil pack (~£45 new for a branded one), removed the EDIS and Ford coil
pack, and wired directly to MicroSquirt as previously mentioned. Timing check worked first time. Also now getting variation of timing when using a
timing light and adjusting the Cranking Advance - all as expected, finally.
@theduck - can I get that map off you? Is it for Alpha-N?
Now just need to get some custom length HT leads and a coil pack mounting bracket made up. Thanks for the help everyone.
For reference to other beginners reading this in the future, here are some other settings needed in the setup:
TunerStudio Basic Setup -> Basic/Advanced User -> User Level: Enhanced (this enables the 'Trigger Wheel Settings' dialog box)
Ignition Settings: Spark Mode = 'Toothed Wheel', Ignition Capture = 'Rising Edge', Spark Output = 'Going High
(inverted)'
Trigger Wheel Settings: 36-1, Tooth #1 Angle = 80 degBTDC (since the missing tooth is 90 degBTDC on the 4cyl blacktop)
Then follow the usual steps to confirm the input signals and timing before attempting to start with fuel.
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Tiger Avon - 2.0L Blacktop Zetec - GSXR1000 TBs - Microsquirt V3
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theduck
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| posted on 19/4/20 at 01:43 PM |
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Glad to hear it’s working. What size injectors are you running? I only have a very basic “start up” Map currently, which will be enough to get the car
to start but not really safe for anything else. I’ll be able to get something better once I get my hands on my mates car, but that’s going to be June
at the earliest.
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ak
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| posted on 19/4/20 at 09:15 PM |
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They're standard GSXR1000 K1/K2 injectors (I believe ~240cc/min), part of the kit from DanST Engineering.
I do have a 2.0L Zetec map from the company who supplied me the Microsquirt, but trying to check with them whether it was based on SpeedDensity or
Alpha-N. Hopefully it's enough to get me running at least, but would be interesting to see whatever map you have too.
Cheers
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Tiger Avon - 2.0L Blacktop Zetec - GSXR1000 TBs - Microsquirt V3
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theduck
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| posted on 19/4/20 at 09:40 PM |
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If it is alpha n it will do to start the engine. Send me a u2u and if we can sort out suitable time we can look to do a zoom call or something and I
can talk you through setting up your current project for a first start.
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